Comment author: NancyLebovitz 12 December 2014 10:49:54PM 2 points [-]

And to think that it all began with a vague uncomfortable feeling and a desire to understand!

You might be interested in Thinking at the Edge-- it's the only system I know of for getting cognitive value out of those vague feelings.

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 14 December 2014 02:52:16AM 0 points [-]

An interesting response. I did not mean to imply that the feeling had implicit value, but rather that my discomfort interacted with a set of preexisting conditions in me and triggered many associated thoughts to arise.

I'm not familiar with this specific philosophy; are you suggesting I might benefit from this or would be interested in it from an academic perspective? Both perhaps?

Do you have any thoughts on the rest of the three page article? I'm beginning to feel like I brought an elephant into the room that no one wants to comment on.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 December 2014 04:45:30PM 0 points [-]

Because most people think that when they read an article they either agree or disagree and that's pretty clear the moment they read the article.

The idea that the article contains a parable that creates cognitive change with a time lack of a day, week, month or year isn't in the common understanding of cognition. It's not a phenomena that's well studied.

That means there a lot of claims on the subject for which people would want proof but no scientific studies to back up those claims.

I just read Dune and it contains the description of a character:

It was obvious that Fenring seldom did anything he felt to be unnecessary, or used two words where one would do, or held himself to a single meaning in a single phrase.

Speaking in that way where phrases generally have more than one meaning is not easy when you try to make complex arguments that are defensible.

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 05:45:59PM *  0 points [-]

I think I must have explained myself poorly ... you don't have to take my subjective experience or my observations as proof of anything on the subject of parables or on cognition. I agree that double entendre can make complex arguments less defensible, but would caution that it may never be completely eliminated from natural language because of the way discourse communities are believed to function.

Specifically, what subject contains many claims for which there is little proof? Are we talking now about literary analysis?

If you also mean to refer to the many claims about the mechanisms of cognition that lack a well founded neuro-biological foundation, there are several source materials informing my opinion on the subject. I understand that the lack experimentally verifiable results in the field of cognition seems troubling at first glance. For the purposes of streamlining the essay, I assumed a relationship between cognition and intelligence by which intelligence can only be achieved through cognition. Whether this inherently cements the concept of intelligence into the unverifiable annals of natural language, I gladly leave up to each reader to decide. Based on my sense of how the concepts are used here on LW, intelligence and cognition are not completely well-defined in such a way that they could be implemented in strictly rational terms.

However, your thoughts on this are welcome.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 10 December 2014 12:16:20AM 3 points [-]

Interesting. I understand how you arrived at that. The sequences and esp. EYs posts are often written in that style. But you don't need to write that way (actually I don't think you succeeded at that). My first tries were also somewhat trying to fit in but overdoing it - and somewhat failing too. Good luck. TRrying and failing is better than not trying and thus not learning.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/dg7/what_have_you_recently_tried_and_failed_at/

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 05:22:35PM 0 points [-]

Thank you for your feedback. I am not sure what I think, but the general response so far seems to support the notion that I have tried to adapt the structure to a rhetorical position poorly suited for my writing style. I'm hearing a lot of "stream of consciousness" ... the first section specifically might require more argumentation regarding effective rhetorical structures. I attack parables without offering a replacement, which is at best rude but potentially deconstructive past the point of utility. I'm currently working on an introduction that might help generate more discussion based on content.

Comment author: William_Quixote 10 December 2014 02:56:47PM 3 points [-]

Post needs an executive summary / abstract

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 05:11:24PM *  1 point [-]

I have added a short introductory abstract to clarify my intended purpose in writing. Hopefully it helps.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 December 2014 04:50:43PM 1 point [-]

LW is quite diverse. There are a lot of different people with different views.

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 04:55:49PM 0 points [-]

That alone is not an obstacle necessarily. We must establish what these views have in common and how they differ in structure and content.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 December 2014 02:19:57AM 6 points [-]

On first glance your post looked like it was written by someone who lacks the ability to write clearly. At second glance it looks like it's simply the product of deconstrutivist thinking and therefore not easily accessible.

I'm not sure that the way a few terms get used here is clear to you.

Economists started to speak about rational agents when they mean an agent that optimizes it's actions according to an utility function. In those models it's not important whether or not the agent has reasons for his decisions that he can articulate. On LW we use a notion of rationality that's derived from that idea. Rationality is using a systemized process which has maximizes utility.

In retrospect I'm not sure whether that's a good way to use the word, but it's the way it's evolved in this community. Here it's not about engaging in an action that can be rationalized.

Parables do happen to be a nice tool but it's a tool that's not easily understood. Cognitive Science suggests that our naive intuitions about what parables do are not good.

Eliezer recently wrote on facebook:

I don't know the status of informed debate on whether there was a real person corresponding to Buddha at the start of Buddhism, but if there was, telling the mythology as if Buddha stood up from under a tree containing the entire idea, and furthermore woke up with the ability to explain it using parables that people needed to have faith in and would only fully appreciate years later, did a tremendous disservice to Buddhism.

The concept that deep parables do exist and do things with time lags of a year does get acknowledged by Eliezer. On the other hand we lack any good theory. If you read HPMOR with a critical eye you see that it's full of parables.

The problem of parables is that it's hard to talk about them directly.

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 02:39:42PM 0 points [-]

Also, I'd like to steer away from a debate on the question of whether "deep parables" exist. Let's ask directly, "are the parables here on LW deep?" Are they effective?

Comment author: gjm 10 December 2014 01:12:49AM 0 points [-]

So the encoding was probably not the problem

The main problem was most likely that your text was full of nonbreaking spaces. A conversion to actual ASCII would have got rid of those because the (rather limited) ASCII character repertoire doesn't include nonbreaking spaces. I doubt that using an "ANSI" character set did that, though, so yes, the encoding was probably a red herring.

does the GUI read ASCII and ANSI?

What GUI?

what encoding is used for copy and pasting text?

That would be an implementation detail of your operating system; if it's competently implemented (which I think pretty much everything is these days) you should think of what's copied and pasted as being made up of characters, not of the numbers used to encode them.

However, at least on some systems, if you copy from one application that supports (not just plain text but) formatted text into another, the formatting will be (at least roughly) preserved. This will happen, e.g., if you copy and paste from a web browser into Microsoft Word. I find that this is scarcely ever what I want. There's usually a way to paste in just the text (sometimes categorized as "Paste Special", which may offer other less-common options for pasting stuff too).

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 02:37:38PM 0 points [-]

cool :-)

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 10 December 2014 08:57:32AM 2 points [-]

Agreed that your post is impressively mindful. In terms of writing style, maybe try writing more like Steven Pinker or Paul Graham. (If you've haven't read Paul Graham yet, the low-hanging fruit here is to go to his essays page and read a few essays that appeal to you, then copy that style as closely as possible. Here are some favorites of mine. Paul Graham is great at both writing and thinking so you'll do triple duty learning about writing, thinking, and also whatever idea he's trying to communicate.)

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 02:36:37PM 1 point [-]

I've read both. Paul Graham's style is wonderful ... so long as he keeps himself from reducing all of history to a triangular diagram. I prefer Stanley Fish for clarity on linguistics.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 December 2014 02:19:57AM 6 points [-]

On first glance your post looked like it was written by someone who lacks the ability to write clearly. At second glance it looks like it's simply the product of deconstrutivist thinking and therefore not easily accessible.

I'm not sure that the way a few terms get used here is clear to you.

Economists started to speak about rational agents when they mean an agent that optimizes it's actions according to an utility function. In those models it's not important whether or not the agent has reasons for his decisions that he can articulate. On LW we use a notion of rationality that's derived from that idea. Rationality is using a systemized process which has maximizes utility.

In retrospect I'm not sure whether that's a good way to use the word, but it's the way it's evolved in this community. Here it's not about engaging in an action that can be rationalized.

Parables do happen to be a nice tool but it's a tool that's not easily understood. Cognitive Science suggests that our naive intuitions about what parables do are not good.

Eliezer recently wrote on facebook:

I don't know the status of informed debate on whether there was a real person corresponding to Buddha at the start of Buddhism, but if there was, telling the mythology as if Buddha stood up from under a tree containing the entire idea, and furthermore woke up with the ability to explain it using parables that people needed to have faith in and would only fully appreciate years later, did a tremendous disservice to Buddhism.

The concept that deep parables do exist and do things with time lags of a year does get acknowledged by Eliezer. On the other hand we lack any good theory. If you read HPMOR with a critical eye you see that it's full of parables.

The problem of parables is that it's hard to talk about them directly.

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 02:32:09PM 0 points [-]

Why is it difficult to talk about parables directly? We have the word and the abstract concept. Seems like a good start.

I feel like you've pointed out what is at least a genuine inconsistency in purpose. The point of this article was not meant to subvert any discussion of economic rationality but rather to focus discussions of intelligence on more universally acceptable models of cognition.

Comment author: Unknowns 10 December 2014 01:26:26AM 5 points [-]

I found the post extremely difficult to read and to understand the point. From the last section I concluded that you are saying that biases are necessary for some reason? I am still not sure what you are giving as a reason for this.

Comment author: JoshuaMyer 10 December 2014 02:29:31PM *  0 points [-]

I give several reasons in the text as to why biases are necessary. Essentially, all generative cognitive processes are "biased" if we accept the LW concept of bias as an absolute. Here is an illustrated version -- it seems you aren't the only one uncertain as to how I warrant the claim that bias is necessary. I should have put more argument in the conclusion, and, if this is the consensus, I will edit in the following to amend the essay.

To clarify, there was a time in your life before you were probably even aware of cognition during which the process of cognition emerged organically. Sorting through thoughts and memories, optimizing according to variables such as time and calorie consumption, deferring to future selves ... these are all techniques that depend on a preexisting set of conditions by which cognition has ALREADY emerged from, existing in whomever is performing these complex tasks. While searching for bias is helpful in eliminating irrationality from cognitive processes, it does not generate the conditions from which cognition emerges nor explain the generative processes at the core of cognition.

I am critical of the LW parables because, from a standpoint of rhetorical analysis, parables get people to associate actions with outcomes. The parables LW use vary in some ways, but are united in that the search for bias is associated with traditionally positive outcomes, whereas the absence of a search for bias becomes associated with comparatively less desirable outcomes. While I expect some learn deeper truths, I find that the most consistent form of analysis being employed on the forums is clearly the ongoing search for bias.

There are, additionally, LW writings about how rationality is essentially generative and creative and should not be limited to bias searches. This essay was my first shot at an attempt to explain the existence of bias without relying on some evolutionary set of imperatives. If you have any questions feel free to ask; I hope this helps clarify at least what I should have written.

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