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Comment author: advancedatheist 23 April 2015 03:00:38AM 3 points [-]

I don't know how to test it, though I suspect the relative absence of christian beliefs in those countries would make a difference. And why would such a "window" even exist there? If these countries can figure out how to keep economic progress going indefinitely without the dysfunctions in Western societies identified by, say, Peter Thiel, then these countries could very well take the lead in becoming increasingly "futuristic" on their own, without having to look to the West for models and guidance.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 23 April 2015 05:14:06PM 1 point [-]

By window I meant the following: you said that " they have witnessed rapid economic progress in their own societies in their own generation, so they wouldn't understand the appeal of Western pessimism about apocalyptic and dystopian futures." If that is what is going on, then the next generation may not see that as much. If so, we have around a generation. I agree that if the economic progress continues at a fast pace that may not end up with some of the issues we have here, but in general developing countries have as they've neared parity with the developed countries had their improvement rates by many metrics slow down and come more or less into alignment with Western growth rates. Look at for example infant mortality levels and expected lifespan.

Comment author: advancedatheist 23 April 2015 02:26:05AM 4 points [-]

That region's newly emergent middle class people and wealthy people might lack Westerners' prejudices which have made cryonics such a hard idea to sell in our parts of the world.

For one thing, they have witnessed rapid economic progress in their own societies in their own generation, so they wouldn't understand the appeal of Western pessimism about apocalyptic and dystopian futures.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 23 April 2015 02:48:27AM 2 points [-]

That's an interesting hypothesis. Is there any way to test it? Also is there any way to take advantage of it? That suggests that the window for cryonics there may not be very long, possibly on the order of 20 years or so.

Comment author: advancedatheist 22 April 2015 03:53:57PM *  4 points [-]

The story of Matheryn Naovaratpong's cryopreservation has gotten quite a bit of coverage in English-language websites in Southeast Asia:

Father of cryonically preserved Thai girl: I will just hug her if we meet again


Comment author: JoshuaZ 23 April 2015 01:48:49AM 3 points [-]

That's very interesting. I'd be interested to see if this actually leads to an uptick of interest in Southeast Asia.

Comment author: examachine 22 April 2015 12:33:50PM -2 points [-]

Wow, that's clearly foolish. Sorry. :) I mean I can't stop laughing so I won't be able to answer. Are you people retarded or something? Read my lips: AI DOES NOT MEAN FULLY AUTONOMOUS AGENT.

And AI Box experiment is more bullshit. I can PROGRAM an agent so that it never walks out of a box. It never wants to. Period. Imbeciles. You don't have to "imprison" any AI agent.

So, no, because it doesn't have to be fully autonomous.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 22 April 2015 06:34:24PM 0 points [-]

I think gjm responded pretty effectively so I'm just going to note that it really isn't helpful if you want to have a dialogue with other humans to spend your time insulting them. It makes them less likely to listen, it makes one less likely to listen one's self (since one sets up a mental block where it is cognitively unpleasant to admit one was wrong when one was) and makes bystanders who are reading less likely to take your ideas seriously.

By the way Eray, you claimed back last November here that 2018 was a reasonable target for "trans-sapient" entities. Do you still stand by that?

Comment author: Jan_Rzymkowski 21 April 2015 07:34:20PM 0 points [-]

If we're in a simulation, this implies that with high probability either a) the laws of physics in the parent universe are not our own laws of physics (in which case the entire idea of ancestor simulations fails)

It doesn't has to be simulation of ancestor, we may be example of any civilisation, life, etc. While our laws of physics seem complex and weird (for macroscopic effects they generate), they may be actually very primitive in comparison to parent universe physics. We cannot possibly estimate computation power of parent universe computers.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 21 April 2015 08:22:29PM 0 points [-]

Yes, but at that point this becomes a completely unfalsifiable or evaluatable claim and even less relevant to Filtration concerns.

Comment author: Viliam 20 April 2015 01:03:39PM *  6 points [-]

Yes, the link explains why some people may be obsessed by some ideas -- because they generate feeling of status in their heads. Now other question is why this idea instead of some other idea. For example, you are looking for a "bad guy" whose reputation you can smash online, thus generating heroic feelings in yourself... so, from all the available options, why choose cryonics?

Well, I guess it is somehow similar to the previous "bad guys", so whatever enemy-detection algorithm chose them, it also chose cryonics.

atheists... video game fans... cryonicists... -- complete the pattern

What do these have in common?

  • They are groups of people considered weird by most of the society.
  • They are predominantly male groups (which may be merely a consequence of the previous fact, but it takes 0.1 second to spin it as sexism).
  • Those people care about their group strongly, but outsiders do not empathise with them.

For a clickbait website, this is a perfect target. All they have to do is write: "Your way of life makes you hate women, therefore your way of life should be regulated by well-meaning outsiders. What is our proof for this? We have found this one women who feels uncomfortable with you. And since you have a minority of women, it must be a general rule. Now stop resisting and start obeying your new overlords!"

Well, for me the interesting question here is who are the next likely targets. Who else fits this pattern? Can we recognize them before they are attacked? And assuming we care about them, can we use this knowledge to somehow protect them?

My suspicion is that "rationalist" and "effective altruists" do fit this pattern; they were just not given sufficiently high priority yet. It may depend on how large wave of hate the attack on cryonicists can generate. (There is always a risk of choosing too weird group, so the outsiders will be too indifferent to join the wave.)

Of course there is always the chance that I am pattern-matching here too much. My only defense is that we could use this model to generate predictions about who will be attacked next, and then see whether those predictions were right. (On the other hand, it also feels like doing homework for PZ Myers, so maybe this is not a good topic for a public debate.)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 20 April 2015 09:41:51PM 11 points [-]

I don't think this is what is going here at all. The pattern match that is going on is cryonics and fringe science or pseudoscientific ideas that sound like they are promising things they cannot deliver. This much more about PZ thinking of himself as a skeptic and having just enough biology background to think he can comment on any biology related issue.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 April 2015 06:15:30PM 7 points [-]

I'm inclined to think that policy towards illegal immigration is a result of incoherent moral standards-- some combination of "discourage strangers from showing up in large numbers" and "rescue harmless people who are close to death".

Comment author: JoshuaZ 20 April 2015 09:39:39PM 2 points [-]

I'd say inconsistent rather than incoherent moral standards, or different moral standards at tension.

Honestly, this seems like a "well, duh" sort of thing. One just needs to read the rhetoric from say both sides of the US immigration debate, or both sides of the discussions in Europe about refugees from North Africa to see this pretty clearly.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 20 April 2015 07:35:21PM 6 points [-]

PZ Myers:

I also wonder what a future civilization would do if they inherited tanks of liquid nitrogen containing extracted blobs of diseased brains and decapitated heads. Does anyone really believe that they’d feel any obligation to resurrect them, even if they could?

Here's a fun topic of conversation - if I happen across PZ Myers, and he's having a heart attack, should I feel any obligation to perform CPR?

Comment author: JoshuaZ 20 April 2015 08:21:56PM 1 point [-]

He's not saying in that quote that they shouldn't feel an obligation, he's making a point focusing on doubting whether they'd want to resurrect them. I think they very likely would, and PZ is ignoring the entire first-in/last-out which cryonics plans on using to further encourage people to resurrect, but it helps to actually focus on what his criticism is.

Comment author: DanArmak 20 April 2015 07:50:57PM 1 point [-]

these brown dwarfs as well as common planets would travel easier

Do you mean they would make travel easier, or that they could be moved?

Comment author: JoshuaZ 20 April 2015 08:07:23PM 1 point [-]

Make travel easier. Thanks for catching that!

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 20 April 2015 04:43:33PM 0 points [-]

I understood perfectly, I just think you're making a math error.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 20 April 2015 05:10:31PM 2 points [-]

In that case, I'm confused as to what the error is. Can you expand?

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