Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 02:25:23AM 1 point [-]

Don't ask for a source of something that clearly is an interpretation of observation not a study. That's pretty clearly acting dismissively.

I would like to know what evidence you have for your claims. Without evidence, yes, I'm going to dismiss them, because they fit a profile of stereotyping that, in my experience, is tied to factually wrong statements about my gender.

And you know what I mean about claiming ownership too.

I have my suspicions, but that doesn't address my point.

Those comments are said by men to women in a particular way that is more intrusive and different from the way they are said to you. You are being dismissive here too.

I was suggesting that sexual comments and greetings may have different causes. Since I receive greetings that sound similar to the ones described from people who are almost certainly not viewing me as a potential partner, it seems likely that they are received regardless of gender, unlike catcalls.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 02:32:07AM -1 points [-]

You don't have experience, and you turn away vicarious experience - the inferential distance is too large.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 02:19:13AM *  2 points [-]

whereas it is still so for men.

So break it

Once again, I support the right to wear underpants on your head but I wouldn't teach my kids it's socially acceptable.

snip "trans is a choice"

It shows up on brainscans.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 02:23:15AM -3 points [-]

Then you are perpetuating cissexism.

And no it doesn't, there are brain areas that are statistically different in the small population of trans brains donated to science, but there is no brain scan for trans and it would be useless anyway, because if you experience yourself as trans and the scan says "nope" it's the scan that's wrong. The individual is the sole authority and the diagnosis is by telling a shrink what you experience.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 02:02:42AM 3 points [-]

There's an element of "claiming ownership" in cat calling

Source please.

and in "how are you doing" and "smile baby" too.

So ... male passersby are "claiming ownership" of me? Great, now I'll be even more uncomfortable. (I'm male & het, if that wasn't clear.)

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 02:15:28AM *  -3 points [-]

Don't ask for a source of something that clearly is an interpretation of observation not a study. That's pretty clearly acting dismissively.

And you know what I mean about claiming ownership too. Those comments are said by men to women in a particular way that is more intrusive and different from the way they are said to you. You are being dismissive here too.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 01:47:58AM *  1 point [-]

A boy in skirt is not like a boy with underpants on his head, he's like a girl in jeans. That used to be scandalous.

Once, yes, and it was once possible for women to dress "as men" and be assumed to be "effeminate" men. (Google "sweet polly oliver".) However, for various reasons this is no longer the case, whereas it is still so for men.

I am not suggesting "ignoring" it, I am suggesting "not treating it as the thing that determines gender".

Are you saying gender identity is not determined by biology? Because I have some transsexuals who would like to talk to you. (Obviously much of the trappings we assign to gender can and should be ignored.)

EDIT:

If they pick cross-gendered ones, that might last, or it might go away, or it might turn into gay/lesbian identity.

I think you misspelled "transsexual" there,

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 02:13:10AM 0 points [-]

whereas it is still so for men.

So break it.

Are you saying gender identity is not determined by biology? Because I have some transsexuals who would like to talk to you.

The etiology of trans is unknown. There are suggestions that hormones in the womb may play a part, with the brain and body controlled by hormone flushes at different times, resulting in something like "intersex of the brain". But what I meant was more simply, that social categorization of bodies as "male or female" doesn't determine their gender identity. Bear in mind I say social categorization here, because society looks at some things (penis length, particularly) and not at others (brains, particularly) about the body to put people into categories.

And no, I meant cross-gendered in the specific sense of "person socially assigned gender A in clothes socially assigned gender B".

BTW: trans being inborn and immutable is a political thing. It is easier to get rights if your discriminated-against attribute is "not your fault" so you can't be "blamed" for it. This doesn't affect the rightness of the cause, only the ease of implementing it in the face of religious (sin focused) transphobia.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 01:43:48AM 4 points [-]

Oh, I know there are people who would probably deliberately catcall just to annoy - I just assumed it was related to the idea that men enjoy humiliating and denigrating women just ... because we're men. It's surprisingly common once you start noticing it, and almost never challenged, so I make a point of speaking up about these things whenever possible. "Men's Rights" may attract misogynists, but that doesn't mean we should ignore stereotypes of men (not saying you're saying we should - it's just a common assumption and a pet peeve of mine.)

As for the catcalling thing ... I think everyone gets random people saying, basically, "hi". It can be weird when you don't know them, but I think it's distinct from catcalling - which seems to vary geographically, judging by other comments here.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 01:55:20AM 1 point [-]

There's an element of "claiming ownership" in cat calling and in "how are you doing" and "smile baby" too. It means "I have the right to your time, I have the right to your attention, I have the right to have you be pretty for me by smiling" Replying politely only confirms that, they think they have you trapped in a conversation now. And witness how this "right" is backed by indignation "bitch, think you're all that" and gendered tear-down-confidence insults "slut" and "fat ugly cow" as soon as the man is refused. Which is why women learn counter strategies that don't throw back his claim in his face (as he rightly deserves).

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 01:00:11AM 0 points [-]

And they react, often in ways that look like incidental decisions, to exclude the threat.

I agreed with everything you said but this line. Could you clarify it please?

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 01:42:56AM 1 point [-]

The reactions are driven by social instinct reacting with defensive in-group cohesion to out-group threat, so they have effects without feeling like attempts to achieve effects. They feel like righteous indignation, or wanting someone who looks like us, or fear, or moral disapproval, or dismissal as uninteresting, etc.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 01:12:20AM 7 points [-]
  1. I asked how it helps. When I meet someone who appears male, I assume they identify as male, and if they don't then they tell me so. If I treated everyone I met as of indeterminate gender ... I would be ignoring people's established gender far more than accommodating people's insecurities. Besides, I'm going to have to name the kid at some point.

  2. Giving your boy a skirt is implicitly teaching him that wearing one does not signal gender. I may personally be fine with them wearing underpants on their head, but I don't teach them to go to school like that.

  3. I'm still unclear as to why ignoring the biological gender of your child will help them be more tolerant in later life.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 01:34:01AM 0 points [-]

When somebody's born, they don't identify as a gender. By the time they reach talking infancy, they do and will tell you. They will probably want to adopt gendered clothing and behaviours. Those might, or might not match their anatomy. If they pick cross-gendered ones, that might last, or it might go away, or it might turn into gay/lesbian identity. If you aren't being pushy about any of this, they will find their own level. I am not proposing "never permit them a gender", I am proposing "never assign them a gender, coercively".

Unfortunately with strangers, I have less evidence about their genders than I might like. That is because people don't feel very free to express cross-gender presentation, and in fact it takes such an immense crushing need that people dare the taunts, for them to even be visible. So there are lots of tans women walking around looking like men, and there are lots of trans men walking around looking like women. And it is because of dismissive attitudes like yours about the skirt, which easily translate into ridicule and ostracism. A boy in skirt is not like a boy with underpants on his head, he's like a girl in jeans. That used to be scandalous. But we accepted it more readily, because dressing "like a girl" is seen as degrading while dressing "like a man" was seen as upgrading.

You are strawmanning "ignoring the biological gender" (and building upon an assumption that isn't true; biology isn't gender, it isn't even oversimplified binary sex - but that's a story for another day). I am not suggesting "ignoring" it, I am suggesting "not treating it as the thing that determines gender".

Comment author: undermind 27 November 2012 01:05:41AM *  1 point [-]

I think it's not.

I can't figure out which part this is refering to.

Also: I'm pretty sure I agree with what you've been saying in these posts, including this one. (Has that come across clearly? I'm curious.) I also may have been strawmanning you (thanks MugaSofer for pointing this out), which is an interesting combination.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 01:07:01AM 1 point [-]

That refers to "I still think your previous comment was too simplistic".

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 12:50:46AM 0 points [-]

YMMV, in my experience anti-racism is, in fact, on the curriculum (I'm Irish) and most people don't see themselves as belonging to the group "sexists" which must be defended (am I strawmanning you here?)

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 01:05:19AM 5 points [-]

People don't see their attitudes as anything but "normal" because being a sexist or a racist doesn't feel like villainy, doesn't even feel like a moral choice, it just feels like facts.

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 November 2012 12:41:04AM *  1 point [-]
  1. How does treating a child as genderless help if they prove to be transexual?

  2. Surely this is covered by "not enforcing stereotypes"?

  3. I don't follow.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 27 November 2012 12:59:21AM -3 points [-]

"Until the child tells you their gender identity", I said - you wait in a state of openness to all alternatives, and they tell you. A child is not cis until proven trans. It's "no data". They will say.

Yes, ultimately, this is not enforcing stereotypes. But that phrase primes you for vastly underestimating the scope of what you need to do. Like, it primes you to think in terms of "offer Jane a dinosaur as well as a Barbie" rather than "do not assume that Cody would prefer jeans rather than a skirt".

Children raised to assume they have control of their gender presentation and the right to assert their gender identity, will not be inclined to make assumptions about, or tease and ostracise, other people's gender.

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