In response to Try more things.
Comment author: KatieHartman 14 January 2014 04:21:22PM 0 points [-]

I'm much less (emotionally) motivated to try new things/deviate from my routine than I'd like to be, especially when an intervention's purpose is to improve something I'm currently not doing very well at. For example, I feel a lot more motivated to try something that might further improve a project that's already going very well than I am to try something that might turn around a project that's failing. I suspect that this is related to ugh fields. Any suggestions?

Comment author: KatieHartman 11 January 2014 09:52:42AM 1 point [-]

I'm up for committing to the first week and then continuing if it seems useful. :)

Comment author: Apprentice 10 January 2014 03:18:56PM 2 points [-]

I never meant to argue that there was no way you could not have children and come out ahead in the moral calculus. Your suggestion, for example, might well work, yes. The market for donated gametes is limited - but not necessarily saturated, as David Gerard keeps pointing out. So contributing there may well do a lot of good on the margin.

Comment author: KatieHartman 10 January 2014 04:45:30PM *  -1 points [-]

It actually seems pretty difficult to see how having children would, on average, be anywhere near as strong an option if your outcome measures are (1) number of children who would otherwise would not exist/reach adulthood and (2) number of children produced using your (presumably much better than donor-average) genetic material.

There are a lot of factors that influence the cost to raise a child (e.g. family income, number of children in a single household), but the USDA's figures suggest that even a relatively low-income family ($0-60k combined household earnings) will be spending ~$175k per child. It's no question that you could redirect that money toward organizations that would save the lives of many children for less.

Gamete donation looks pretty good, too. If you're donating eggs, you probably won't produce many children - IVF success rates are still fairly low, and most donors only produce 10-15 eggs per cycle (although they can donate several times). On the other hand, screening tends to be a lot less discerning for egg donors compared to sperm donors - physical/hereditary health seems to be the primary concern. So if you're exceptionally intelligent, altruistic, and/or happy, it might be much better for your eggs to be put to use than the typical donor's. You can also net $5-15k per cycle, which you could donate toward saving even more children.

If you're donating sperm, you can potentially produce many more children than you could reasonably support as a caregiver (Cryos, apparently the world's largest sperm bank, claims that the "average donor" can expect to father 25 children), but due to slightly more stringent screening, the difference between the quality of your sperm and the average donor's might be a bit less stark. That said, most banks seem to care about things like education and height, which aren't necessarily great proxies for the things most of us care about.

So, assuming you're accepted as a donor and you actually follow through on donating a substantial amount of money, you can with near certainty cause many more children to reach adulthood than you could possibly raise and likely cause a few (or more) children to be born with your genes. All with a substantially lower time investment than you'd expect to sacrifice for child-rearing.

Comment author: KatieHartman 10 January 2014 02:12:17PM 0 points [-]

Is there any good reason for having children you don't particularly want to have rather than (a) donating lots of high-quality gametes and (b) giving some or all of the money you would've spent on child-rearing to an organization that prevents the premature deaths of other children?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 January 2014 08:15:19PM *  1 point [-]

I've wondered whether there might be high expected value for creating an organization ... dedicated to figuring out how to sell EA charities effectively.

Almost certainly yes. I mean, it if helps to create more effective altruists than it has members, it already is a net benefit. Actually, its members don't even have to be effective altruists, only the ones who make decisions (to make sure that the organization remains promoting effective altruism and that it uses a correct definition). So the best structure would be to have a group of effective altruists as supervisors, a few employees selected by their expertise (they don't even have to be altruists of any kind), and a group of volunteers (e.g. students who want to be altruists, but don't have any significant income yet; again it's not necessary for them to be effective altruists).

Meta-charities like GiveWell are a multiplier, in the sense that they help altruists to donate their money to higher-impact causes instead of lower-impact causes. But if we had dozen of GiveWell's, they would not multiply each other; they wouldn't even add to each other, because at the end they would help to redirect the same amounts of money. But an organization promoting effective altruism and creating new effective altruists would be another multiplier.

There seems to be an understanding that donating to EA charities tends to provide fewer warm-fuzzies than giving to their (most successful) non-EA counterparts

This could be changed by promoting efficient altruism, creating local meetups of efficient altruists, etc. It's not only to find new altruists, but to give some social bonus (= warm fuzzies) to both existing and the new ones.

So it seems to me this should be a high priority.

Comment author: KatieHartman 03 January 2014 08:41:59PM *  1 point [-]

This could be changed by promoting efficient altruism, creating local meetups of efficient altruists, etc. It's not only to find new altruists, but to give some social bonus (= warm fuzzies) to both existing and the new ones.

There's a significant difference between selling effective altruism to non-EAs and selling a specific effective charity to non-EAs. I suspect that the former is both more valuable (in the long term) and more difficult. Upping the warm-fuzzies seems to me like it would work toward both (as well as EA retention, although I know of no significant existing problem with that), which is why I find it surprising that there's not more work being done there (that I'm aware of).

I think we need to be very careful to avoid saying anything along the lines of "Warm-fuzzies? We don't need no warm-fuzzies!" Most people do seem to need them, if they're going to keep giving. And it makes us look pretentious to the uninitiated. (To be clear, I'm not implying you've said anything to indicate you do this or disagree - but it occasionally makes its way into public conversations about effective altruism and seems noteworthy.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 January 2014 05:30:01PM *  5 points [-]

Then we should nominate someone who can make an exciting talk about bed nets, assuming the expected benefits of doing so exceed the expected costs.

By the way, the person who prepares the talk does not necessarily have to be the same person whose name and credentials will be used with this talk to make it taken seriously.

Comment author: KatieHartman 03 January 2014 07:07:57PM 0 points [-]

Yes!

Tangentially related: I've wondered whether there might be high expected value for creating an organization (perhaps a temporary one, or one existing within a larger existing org) dedicated to figuring out how to sell EA charities effectively. There is already a growing body of research on charitable giving, but the opportunities are hardly tapped out. There seems to be an understanding that donating to EA charities tends to provide fewer warm-fuzzies than giving to their (most successful) non-EA counterparts, but few people talking about it seem to consider this very dire or changeable.

Comment author: KatieHartman 03 January 2014 06:45:59PM 6 points [-]

It's an interesting theory, but I'm hesitant to give much weight to weakly-supported hypotheses intended to explain very broad and inclusive phenomena, like "murders (or a lack thereof) occurring within these arbitrary geographical borders." This is especially true when there's no shortage of plausible theories and a lot of potentially-useful information is missing.

The changeling myths seem to serve the purpose of guilt-relief only insofar as they also aid shame-relief, so I''m not sure they're all that helpful. (Am I missing something?)

Basically, this reads to me like an interesting but not particularly credible just-so story.

In response to Why CFAR?
Comment author: Robin 29 December 2013 12:26:40AM 5 points [-]

Does CFAR feel developed enough that it would prefer money to feedback?

I.E, I presume there are many people out there who could help CFAR either by dedicating a few hours of there time thinking about how to improve CFAR or earning money to donate to CFAR.

In response to comment by Robin on Why CFAR?
Comment author: KatieHartman 29 December 2013 12:49:03PM 19 points [-]

Having spent a fair amount of time around CFAR staff, in the office and out, I can testify to their almost unbelievable level of self-reflection and creativity. (I recall, several months ago, Julia joking about how much time in meetings was spent discussing the meetings themselves at various levels of meta.) For what it's worth, I can't think of an organization I'd trust to have a greater grasp on its own needs and resources. If they're pushing fundraising, I'd estimate with high confidence that it's because that's where the bottleneck is.

I think donating x hours-worth of income is, with few exceptions, a better route than trying to donate x hours of personal time, especially when you consider that managing external volunteers/having discussions (a perhaps-unpredictable percentage of which will be unproductive) is itself more costly than accepting money.

I'd be willing to guess that the next best thing to donating money would be to pitch CFAR to/offer to set up introductions with high-leverage individuals who might be receptive, but only if that's the sort of thing (you have evidence for believing) you're good at.

Also, sharing information about the fundraising drive via email/Facebook/Twitter/etc. is probably worth the minimal time and effort.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 04 July 2013 06:42:54PM 0 points [-]

There's something about this sort of philosophy that I've wondered about for a while.

Do you think that deriving utility from the suffering of others (or, less directly, from activities that necessarily involve the suffering of others) is a valid value? Or is it intrinsically invalid?

That is, if we were in a position to reshape all of reality according to our whim, and decided to satisfy the values of all morally relevant beings, would we also want to satisfy the values of beings that derive pleasure/utility from the suffering of others, assuming we could do so without actually inflicting disutility/pain on any other beings?

And more concretely: in a "we are now omnipotent gods" scenario where we could, if we wanted to, create for sharks an environment where they could eat fish to their hearts' content (and these would of course be artificial fish without any actual capacity for suffering, unbeknownst to the sharks) — would we do so?

Or would we judge the sharks' pleasure from eating fish to be an invalid value, and simply modify them to not be predators?

The shark question is perhaps a bit esoteric; but if we substitute "psychopaths" or "serial killers" for "sharks", it might well become relevant at some future date.

Comment author: KatieHartman 08 July 2013 04:10:04AM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid" here - could you clarify? I will say that I think a world where beings are deriving utility from the perception of causing suffering without actually causing suffering isn't inferior to a world where beings are deriving the same amount of utility from some other activity that doesn't affect other beings, all else held equal. However, it seems like it might be difficult to maintain enough control over the system to ensure that the pro-suffering beings don't do anything that actually causes suffering.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 04 July 2013 04:12:15PM *  1 point [-]

We can say, "Evil sharks!" but I don't feel any need to either exterminate all predators from the world, nor to modify them to graze on kelp. Yes, there's a monumental amount of animal suffering in the ordinary course of things, even apart from humans. Maybe there wouldn't be in a system designed by far future humans from scratch. But radically changing the one we live in when we hardly know how it all works -- witness the quoted results of overfishing shark -- strikes me as quixotic folly.

Comment author: KatieHartman 04 July 2013 04:32:52PM 0 points [-]

It strikes me as folly, too. But "Let's go kill the sharks, then!" does not necessarily follow from "Predation is not anywhere close to optimal." Nowhere have I (or anyone else here, unless I'm mistaken) argued that we should play with massive ecosystems now.

I'm very curious why you don't feel any need to exterminate or modify predators, assuming it's likely to be something we can do in the future with some degree of caution and precision.

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