Meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 5!

0 Kenoubi 25 April 2012 02:31AM

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 5!

WHEN: 29 April 2012 12:00:00PM (-0400)

WHERE: 1324 Wightman St., Pittsburgh, PA 15217

You can see my game collection here; please bring anything else you'd like to play. We can order food and go as late as 19:00. If I get paged I may have to deal with an emergency (from home, using my laptop), but if that doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me. I have a cat. Please let me know if you're allergic and need me to put her upstairs. RSVP here or by sending me a private message (but don't not show up because you didn't RSVP, I just want a rough idea of the number of attendees). Ring the bell, knock, or call or text (412) 657-1395 to get in when you get there.

I intend to hold meetups every 2-3 weeks, so watch this space! Please let me know if you'd like to run some other kind of meetup (discussion group, presentation) at my house. I am partial to the location since I'm frequently on call and unable to go anywhere.

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 5!

Comment author: Dmytry 24 March 2012 10:05:59PM *  0 points [-]

The point is that 'given (output X)=a' may eventually let you prove a contradiction when the output is not, in fact, a, and you have added a false statement as input.

In practice, one does not use a two-way axiom of (output X)=a but an one-way substitution rule 'replace (output X) with a' . The rule may be applied once at start, or through first N steps of deduction process (to catch the cases where deduction manages to deduce X from a slightly modified X that was included inside the 'other algorithm' ; note that one can't do it forever because at some point the proof checker arrives at X from first principles, and the contradiction can be introduced by substitution.

The issue he described is specific to using (outputs X)=a as given, which allows you to e.g. do some algebra, arrive at a number a for any reason, and then replace a with (output X) , which lets you contradict yourself, or make a self fulfilling prophesy. The intent of making it a given, is to make the substitutions one way, but the theorem prover can do substitutions other way around.

Comment author: Kenoubi 24 March 2012 11:57:47PM 2 points [-]

Here's what I think you're saying: there is one value that will actually be output, call it o. In every iteration of the for loop except the one where you assume the output is o, you have assumed a false statement. From this contradiction you should be able to derive anything, and in particular, derive U(this choice)=some large negative number, such that o will appear to be the best choice. Furthermore, this argument makes no reference to what o actually is, so the algorithm can output any choice this way.

That's a very good argument, although I never would have figured it out from the article and it took some thinking to get it from your comment. I think it proves that the algorithm is underspecified though, not (necessarily) faulty; the description given is not enough to actually figure out what the algorithm will output.

As for the rest of your comment, I think by "in practice" you mean "in decision theories other than NDT which work better"?

Comment author: Kenoubi 24 March 2012 09:50:15PM 1 point [-]

Your self-fulfilling prophecy example works for the iteration of the for loop (described in "For each xi, assume the output of X is xi, and try to deduce the expected value of U.") in which the output is assumed to be a, but for the iteration in which the output is assumed to be b, proving that the output is a would be to prove a contradiction. "if (output X)=b then U=0" is one possible outcome, but U could also equal anything else.

I don't see how the NDT algorithm as given allows "(output X)=a" to be proved outside of the for loop at all. I would think it would take (output X)=whatever for each iteration through the for loop as a given before trying to prove anything, in which case in the run of the for loop in which (output X)=b is the given, proving (output X)=a is a clear contradiction, one which I would think our prover could avoid unless our axiomatic system is contradictory in the first place.

Or to rephrase, I don't think "For each xi, assume the output of X is xi, and try to deduce the expected value of U." and "(That is, try and deduce statements of the form "if (output X)=xi then U=ui" for some ui)." are actually equivalent at all, and I think the self-fulfilling prophecy example follows the second and ignores the first.

Comment author: Alex_Altair 08 March 2012 08:46:33AM 0 points [-]

I am JUST leaving this morning, and I have been staying at the house just a few houses down from you. I will never catch a break!

Comment author: Kenoubi 08 March 2012 07:43:27PM 0 points [-]

Leaving for what / where? Will you be back?

Meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 4!

1 Kenoubi 08 March 2012 02:29AM

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 4!

WHEN: 11 March 2012 12:00:00PM (-0500)

WHERE: 1324 Wightman St., Pittsburgh, PA 15217

You can see my game collection here; please bring anything else you'd like to play. We can order food and go as late as 19:00. If I get paged I may have to deal with an emergency (from home, using my laptop), but if that doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me. I have a cat. Please let me know if you're allergic and need me to put her upstairs. RSVP here or by sending me a private message (but don't not show up because you didn't RSVP, I just want a rough idea of the number of attendees). Ring the bell, knock, or call or text (412) 657-1395 to get in when you get there. I intend to hold these every 2-3 weeks, so watch this space!

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 4!

Comment author: Kenoubi 20 February 2012 04:30:22PM 2 points [-]

I think that ''evolved faulty thinking processes'' is the wrong way to look at it and I will argue that some biases are the consequence of structural properties of the brain, which 'cannot' be affected by evolution.

The structure can be affected by evolution, it's just too hard (takes too many coordinated mutations) to get to a structure that actually works better. I think you recognize this by your use of scare quotes, but you would be better off stating it explicitly. This is the flip side of the arguments I think you're alluding to, that the faulty thinking was actually beneficial in the EEA.

There must be an evolutionary explanation for the properties of the brain, but that doesn't mean we need to actually figure out that evolutionary explanation to understand the current behavior. Just like there must be an explanation in terms of physics, but trying to analyze every particle will clearly get us nowhere.

In fact, if you can find an explanation of a phenomenon in terms of current brain structure, I think that screens off evolutionary explanations as mere history (as long as you've really verified that the structure exists and explains the phenomenon).

I do think we're getting sidetracked by your halo effect example, though -- it might be useful to give three or four examples to avoid this (although if each one has a different explanation, that might substantially increase the effort of presenting your idea).

Comment author: Dmytry 19 February 2012 03:06:12PM *  2 points [-]

There's a certain issue.

A revision control system I use (GIT) uses 128 bit hashes to identify a much longer piece of program code. There are very many pieces of program code that correspond to same hash.

I don't expect it to ever encounter collision, though. Just because something maps large space to a smaller space, doesn't mean any collisions will actually happen. Even a couple hundred bits is enough to define space so vast, that you can map anything you encounter in your life to it, and never see a collision. Not that our brains necessarily work like this. But they can in principle avoid collisions.

For the halo effect you're speaking of, it is the case that positive qualities weakly correlate - at least the good looks and intelligence do, then the intelligence generally correlates with niceness in so much as intelligence prevents grossly un-nice behaviour that hurts everyone including that person. Still could usually be a fallacy, of course, some sort of signal leakage between 'good looks' and 'good somethingelse'.

I'd say, people just tend to assume by default there's some correlation between two things - either they assume it is positive (so pretty, must be nice), or they assume it is negative (so pretty, must be evil or spoiled or the like), and just a few people assume it is zero by default.

Comment author: Kenoubi 19 February 2012 05:30:38PM 2 points [-]

If the brain avoided collisions in the way you describe, it would utterly fail at its function. The brain must be able to access the information it has about similar situations to make judgments and decisions about the current one. Looking up that information must make use of some data in common between the current situation and whatever representation the brain has of other similar situations, or there would be no way to locate or identify that information.

So at the description level of "the brain is a computing device", this seems plausible, but considering what the brain actually does, I don't see how it could work. It could use a hybrid of hash functions and structural similarities at different levels, and maybe it does. But the fact that we can confuse two different people who have some attributes in common, or even whose names are similar but not the same, seems like evidence against that to me.

Comment author: arundelo 25 January 2012 04:40:09PM 0 points [-]

Specifically, it looks like there's a %22 at the end that shouldn't be there. (Here's the corrected version.)

Comment author: Kenoubi 25 January 2012 11:14:43PM 0 points [-]

Thanks, fixed.

Meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 3!

0 Kenoubi 25 January 2012 04:05AM

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 3!

WHEN: 29 January 2012 01:00:00PM (-0500)

WHERE: 1324 Wightman St., Pittsburgh, PA 15217

You can see my game collection here; please bring anything else you'd like to play. We can order food and go as late as 19:00. If I get paged I may have to deal with an emergency (from home, using my laptop), but if that doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me. I have a cat. Please let me know if you're allergic and need me to put her upstairs. RSVP here or by sending me a private message (but don't not show up because you didn't RSVP, I just want a rough idea of the number of attendees). Ring the bell, knock, or call or text (412) 657-1395 to get in when you get there. I intend to hold these every 2-3 weeks, so watch this space!

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 3!

Meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 2!

0 Kenoubi 12 January 2012 08:26PM

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 2!

WHEN: 15 January 2012 01:00:00PM (-0500)

WHERE: 1324 Wightman St., Pittsburgh, PA 15217

I will be hosting board games on some Sundays. Each event will be announced separately, since the schedule will be a bit irregular; the first event will be this Sunday. I only have 5 games (Bohnanza, Citadels, Acquire, Illuminati, and Hacker), so please bring anything you'd like to play. We can order food and go as late as 19:00. If I get paged I may have to deal with an emergency (from home, using my laptop), but if that doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me.

Allergy warning: I have a cat. I can put her upstairs on request, but if you have a cat allergy you might want to take some meds. If you decide not to come because you have a severe cat allergy, please tell me.

RSVP here or by sending me a private message (but don't not show up because you didn't RSVP, I just want a rough idea of the number of attendees). Ring the bell, knock, or call or text (412) 657-1395 to get in when you get there.

Discussion article for the meetup : Pittsburgh Meetup: Big Gaming Fun 2!

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