Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 29 November 2015 05:06:35PM 3 points [-]

My biggest gripe about English is that there is no consistent relationship between morphology and part of speech. There is a muddy, approximate relationship which is inherited from French/Latin and German, so that for example you typically know that if you see an adjective X, and see a word Xity, then the latter word is a noun meaning "property of being X". Similarly, if you see an adjective Y, and another word Yen, the latter word is a verb meaning "to make Y". But this system is not used consistently. Ideally, a listener (reader) should be able to identify the part of speech of a word immediately by inspection of phonological (typographic) expression.

If you want to follow this rule, you will need to make it easy for people to do the sorts of colloquial grammar-jumping that come up in everyday speech. For example the word "hammer" is a noun but also a verb meaning "to hit with a hammer". "Ship" is a noun but also a verb meaning "to send by ship" and so on.

Another issue with English (and probably other languages) is that prepositions are overloaded, so that the same word can mean different things, as in "Galileo saw a man with a telescope". Since with can mean both by means of and carrying/holding, the sentence is ambiguous. It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that every important case in which a preposition must be used should correspond to a distinct word.

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:31:07AM 2 points [-]

All good points, and among the strengths of conlangs in general. It still amazes me that past efforts at reforming English spelling, like President Roosevelt's, weren't accepted.

Comment author: ChristianKl 29 November 2015 11:25:05AM *  1 point [-]

As continuation from http://lesswrong.com/lw/mij/welcome_to_less_wrong_8th_thread_july_2015/cxaz

a-priori conlang

Yes, just like Loglan/Lojban is a-priori. Apart from simply having more freedom is language design I think the Chinese are more likely to adopt a culturally neutral conlang than one based on European roots like Esperanto.

in which the meaning of any word could be determined from its spelling, because the spelling is sufficient to give the word exact coordinates on a concept graph of some sort.

Not exactly. I decided to copy the Toaq Alpha syllable structure "[C|CC](w|y)[V|VV ](q)" and expended it to "[C|CC](w|y)[V|VV](q/ß)".

I think that roughly all the CV, CCV, CVV space for possible base words should be filled. Afterwards you should be able to add (w|y) in the middle of syllable and (q/ß) at the end to go from caiq [parent] to caiß [boss].

I also have two changes between ce [1] and di [2]. If you simply mishear one phoneme you don't hear 1 instead of 2 but hear a completely different word that doesn't fit into the slot where you would expect a number. That reduces misunderstandings that would appear if I would say ce = [1] and ci = [2].

If you look at Lojban's numbers you see a similar way to use vowels but the consonants are all over the place: 0=no; 1=pa; 2=re; 3=ci; 4=vo; 5=mu; 6=xa; 7=ze; 8=bi; 9=so It would also make more sense if 0 would be 'nu' rather than 'no'.

The biggest problem that any conlang faces is getting people to use it, and anything that makes that more difficult, such as requiring changes to the standard American keyboard, needs to be avoided unless it's absolutely necessary.

I think it's okay to require a change to the US international keyboard and stay within AscII. Having more signs allows for shorter words

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:30:20AM 1 point [-]

I understand the temptation. From the beginning I wanted to scrap parts of the alphabet and start over. From the pedagogical perspective, accepting the fact that children have to learn 4 versions of the same alphabet (capital and non-capital, print and cursive), makes me feel like I'm condoning torture. The only common English uses for the capitals are to set off sentence beginnings and proper nouns, both of which could be handled differently. And now that we're beyond the days of manual typesetting, the only justification for print fonts is that they're easier to read than cursive fonts. I'd love to find or create a non-capital, cursive font that's just as easy to read as print fonts, and then scrap three of the four alphabets. but even separated and with serifs, cursive fonts just never seem to be as easy on the eyes as print fonts. So I decided to stay with contemporary English conventions to enhance ease of learning for English-speaking adults.

Comment author: ChristianKl 29 November 2015 03:59:14PM *  1 point [-]

I ran into some research in which the rate of information transmission of various natural languages was compared.

I'm interested into that research. Can you link it?

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:27:49AM 1 point [-]

Sorry, I don't have a link for it. The result is just something that I remember reading about many years ago. I looked at the link that redding posted and while it probably isn't the same paper (I think I read about this before 2011) the result seems to match what I remember. There's a possibility that if the linked paper could be retrieved, then whatever I read may be in the bibliography, although I don't know if I'd recognize it as such.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 29 November 2015 05:30:26PM 1 point [-]

Applied Ontology: An Introduction. The better you understand the ontological structure of the word the better you will be able to design a language that can precisely describe the ontological structure of the world.

Understanding the true ontological structure of the world is very non trivial, and you might want an improved language to do it in before get finished.

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:25:30AM 1 point [-]

Agreed. This was one of my more painful realizations, that I might have to do more than one iteration of the conlang before developing a finished product, because there will be no way to understand the flaws in the first version well enough to correct them until after learning to speak it fluently.

Comment author: ChristianKl 29 November 2015 07:45:39PM 2 points [-]

Understanding the true ontological structure of the world is very non trivial, and you might want an improved language to do it in before get finished.

I don't think that you need to know the ultimate truth to learn useful things from applied ontology to design a better language than you would design if you ignorant of applied ontology.

I think this is one of those cases where philosophy is helpful and it makes sense to read people like Barry Smith. If you want to speak about obligations (may/should/must) it makes sense to not simply copy the existing words of the English language but first read serious philosophy on what kind of categories of obligations exist. Yes, the resulting language won't be perfect but it will be better than the language that you will be building when you simply copy English.

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:22:12AM 1 point [-]

I've looked into the subject of ontologies (I did research on knowledge base design years ago). The problem wasn't finding ontologies, but finding non-arbitrary ontologies. That is, no matter how one ontology categorized entities, you could always find another that categorized them differently, and no non-arbitrary reason to select one over the other. And I didn't want to give in to the temptation to just choose one and use it regardless. I finally gave up and decided that treating each concept in isolation (for the purpose of dictionary building) was better than using an ontology that some users might find highly counter-intuitive.

Comment author: DataPacRat 29 November 2015 06:21:07AM 1 point [-]

One aspect of Lojban that you may find useful is a sub-portion of it, which can be used as a bolt-on addition to other languages to improve their functionality: Cniglic, which I've compiled a handy reference to at http://www.datapacrat.com/cniglic/ .

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:20:18AM 1 point [-]

I took a look at Cniglic. It seems similar to an idea that I noted as a candidate for an eventual add-on, to use diacritic marks as emotion indicators. The problem that this was intended to solve is that it seems overly limiting to be restricted to the one emotion indicator "!", and to have to put it at the end of the sentence. I much prefer the idea of having many such indicators, and being able to apply them freely throughout sentences. Implementing them as optional diacritic marks above vowels seemed like the best bet. But I haven't gone anywhere with the basic idea, except that at one point I began looking for a "definitive" list of human emotional states. I don't remember ever finding a list that I thought was reliable.

Comment author: ChristianKl 29 November 2015 01:02:49PM *  3 points [-]

Also, there's the problem of enforcement. If, for example, you require that each statement end with an evidential, then what will stop irritated users from simply omitting it?

In English every sentence ends in ".", "?" or "!". You can't simply omit those because otherwise a new sentence won't start. I think it's good for evidentials to end sentence's in the same way.

Recently I develed a bit into radical honesty. Radical honesty proclaims that you say what's on your mind. However instead of saying: "You are angry", you can say "I imagine you are angry". The usage of "I imagine" makes the conversation much nicer. It's part of what stops people practicing radical honesty from being assholes. At the same time "I imagine" costs four syllables. The direct translation into German is even more clumsy: "Ich stelle mir vor, dass". It would be much nicer if the language integrates evidentials by default.

Comment author: KevinGrant 30 November 2015 07:18:05AM 1 point [-]

The problem that I see with this is that people are basically lazy-brained. Even if a language requires that you choose a final particle that indicates evidentiality, people will just not use it. For example, if the written form of a language requires that a sentence end with ".", "?" or "!", and each one is an evidential particle, then tomorrow someone on the internet will say "By the way everyone, I'm tired of doing all of this evidentiality stuff when I don't need to, so I'm just going to write '_' at the end of all of my sentences, and it doesn't mean anything but that the sentence is over." Within a week the convention will be adopted all over the world, and mandatory evidentiality will be a thing of the past. It might or might not be a good idea, but I just can't see a grammatical requirement overcoming human laziness.

Many years ago an acquaintance of mine in college said "A system without an application is a useless ornament." I believe that he was quoting someone, although I have no idea who (BTW, if anyone here knows where this quote might have come from I'd appreciate the reference). In the case of a conlang, part of the beauty comes from the fact of its widespread use. While I agree that mandatory evidentials are a tempting idea (I'd certainly like a language that has them), I don't believe that they'd hold up well in actual use.

Comment author: ChristianKl 28 November 2015 07:00:25PM *  1 point [-]

I do have a conlang draft. A few thoughts based on my conlang thinking:

Loglan/Lojban is a language were math was an afterthought. That's likely mistake. If you look at a concept like grandfather, using the word "grand" doesn't make much sense. I think it's better to say something like father-one for grandfather, father-two for great-grandfather. The same way the boss of your boss should be boss-one. Having a grammer in which relationships can be expressed well is very valuable.

I think that loglan attempt to build on existing roots of the widely spoken languages is flawed because it allows less freedom organizing the language effectively. It would be good to have a lot of concepts with 3 letters instead of 5.

In my language draft I started to take concept of graph theory for naming relationships (the structure of the words matters but the actual word is provisional):

bei node in same graph
cai node parent
doi node children

beiq relative
caiq parent
doiq son/daughter

bei person employed in the same company
caiß boss (person with authority to order)
doiß direct (person who can be ordered)

Once you understand that structure and learn the new word "fuiq" for sibling, you can guess that a direct coworker is called fuiß. Of the in a graph notes that share the same parent note are "fui".

I like grouping concepts this way where I can go from parent to son/daughter simply by going one forward in the alphabet and replace "c" with "d" and "a" with "o" ("i" get's skipped because the word ends in "i").

I did use a similar principle for naming numbers: ba 0
ce 1
di 2
fo 3
gu 4
ha 5
je 6

For the number I also gave adding a "q" meaning. It turn the number into base 16. Base 16 numbers are later quite useful if you want to make an expression like north-east. At the moment pilots use phrases based on the clock to navigate: "There's a bird at 2 o'clock." It's much better to bake numbers more centrally into the language.


In case you haven't seen it http://selpahi.de/ToaqAlphaPrimer.html is a nice draft for a new language. I like how the language makes every sentence end in an evidential. In it I think he makes a mistake that he doesn't use capital letters but non-asci character instead.

I think that it's great that his language doesn't follow the Lojban place system but uses prepositions like a normal language.

Comment author: KevinGrant 29 November 2015 09:27:46AM 1 point [-]

Also, the topic is now up and running in the regular "discussion" area.

Comment author: KevinGrant 29 November 2015 08:00:00AM 6 points [-]

Since other replies are drifting in this direction, I'll reply to my own post with a comment about Heinlein's fictional conlang Speedtalk, to which Ithkuil has been compared. Like a lot of people, it was one of the ideas that got me interested in conlangs. But after a bit of research I concluded that it wasn't a fruitful direction to head in. I ran into some research in which the rate of information transmission of various natural languages was compared. It turns out that in languages that are spoken faster, as measured in phonemes per second, the information carrying content, measured in bits per phoneme, is smaller. The result is that you really don't seem to get a lot of bang for your buck by monkeying around with your language design to try to increase the rate of information transmission. The bottleneck at the high end seems to be in the processing capacity of the brain, not the structure of the language.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 November 2015 05:29:23AM *  2 points [-]

You didn't mention ithkuil, but it basically has the same goal of incorporating every aspect of language that promotes clear thinking. Would look into it to see if it's what you're looking for.

Comment author: KevinGrant 29 November 2015 07:58:47AM 1 point [-]

I looked at the Wikipedia page for Ithkuil. It doesn't seem to be geared towards preventing cognitive errors, so much as packing as much information as possible into as few phonemes as possible. For most of them I can't see the point. In English I can say "Trees are green." in a few simple words. From the sound of it, in Ithkuil I'd have to pack in so much information about the trees that it would take me an hour to figure out how to write the sentence. Is the set of trees spatially contiguous, in a specific but unnamed forest? Or is this the set of all trees on earth, being denoted as members of an abstractly defined set? And how do I feel about the matter?

Also, the creator packed the phoneme set so tightly that I can't see how he's going to avoid a high rate of transmission errors. There comes a point where you've got so many vowel sounds that individual sounds are so close together in phonetic space that you can't reliably distinguish between them.

So far I've been going in the opposite direction. Rather than including multiple layers of meaning in each word by complicating the sounds and grammar, I've been planning to restrict meaning to one meaning per word, with each additional bit of information requiring more text to transmit, and no restrictions on what the user can leave out because it's irrelevant. It looks to me like Ithkuil goes in the opposite direction. Which isn't to say that there isn't some interesting material there. The creator seems to have broken down his informational overlays into unusual categories, such as "configuration", "affiliation", "perspective", and so forth. It would be interesting to read about why he selected the categories that he did. So there might be some interesting stuff there to borrow. But it seems that he gave up too much in the way of usability. What good is a language that decreases the frequency of common cognitive errors, if the only people who can use it are already so smart that they rarely make such errors?

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