Comment author: Houshalter 26 April 2015 05:07:37AM -1 points [-]

Please Don't Fight the Hypothetical. I agree with you if you are only 99% sure, but the premise is that you know Omega is right with certainty. Obviously that is implausible, but so is the entire situation with an omniscient being asking people to commit suicide, or oracles that can predict if you will die.

But if you like you can have a lesser cost, like Omega asking you to pay $10,000. Or some amount of money significant enough to seriously consider just giving away.

Comment author: Kindly 26 April 2015 05:42:26AM 2 points [-]

I did say what I would do, given the premise that I know Omega is right with certainty. Perhaps I was insufficiently clear about this?

I am not trying to fight the hypothetical, I am trying to explain why one's intuition cannot resist fighting it. This makes the answer I give seem unintuitive.

Comment author: Houshalter 25 April 2015 08:06:10PM *  1 point [-]

That's great to say, but much harder to actually do.

For example, if Omega pays $1,000 to people or asks them to commit suicide. But it only asks people it knows100% will not do it, otherwise it gives them the money.

The best strategy is to precommit to suicide if Omega asks. But if Omega does ask, I doubt most lesswrongers would actually go through with it.

Comment author: Kindly 25 April 2015 09:25:30PM 1 point [-]

So the standard formulation of a Newcomb-like paradox continues to work if you assume that Omega has a merely 99% accuracy.

Your formulation, however, doesn't work that way. If you precommit to suicide when Omega asks, but Omega is sometimes wrong, then you commit suicide with 1% probability (in exchange for having $990 expected winnings). If you don't precommit, then with a 1% chance you might get $1000 for free. In most cases, the second option is better.

Thus, the suicide strategy requires very strong faith in Omega, which is hard to imagine in practice. Even if Omega actually is infallible, it's hard to imagine evidence extraordinary enough to convince us that Omega is sufficiently infallible.

(I think I am willing to bite the suicide bullet as long as we're clear that I would require truly extraordinary evidence.)

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 24 April 2015 03:14:56PM 4 points [-]

Interesting idea. Could be made into a poll to measure breath and variability of preference via a poll.

I will just plain take your points and make each into a poll and add some of my own. Everybody is invited to vote the their preference on a 1 to 5 scale (as many as you like, no need to consider all, the liste got quite long):

I like spicy things I dislike spicy things

I like chilli I dislike chilli

I like wasabi I dislike wasabi

I like horseraddish I dislike horseraddish

I like sweets I dislike sweets

I'm addicted to sugar

Very much Not at all

I like chocolate I dislike chocolate

I like dark chocolate I dislike dark chocolate

I like licorice I dislike licorice

I like fruits I dislike fruits

I like vegetables I dislike vegetables

I like whole grain products I dislike whole grain products

I like hot dishes I dislike hot dishes

I like cold dishes I dislike cold dishes

I like creamy/squishy/souce-like food I dislike creamy/squishy/souce-like food

I like hard/firm food I dislike hard/firm food

I like crispy food I dislike crispy food

I like beefy food I dislike beefy food

I like ice cream I dislike ice cream

I like cheese I dislike cheese

I like meat I dislike meat

I like fish I dislike fish

I like honey I dislike honey

I like milk I dislike milk

I drink a lot of water I drink water only as part of other drinks

I like coffee I dislike coffee

I like tea I dislike tea

I like to drink coffeinated beverages I don't like to drink coffeinated beverages

I like fruit juice I dislike fruit juice

I like hot drinks I dislike hot drinks

I like cold drinks I dislike cold drinks

I like fruit juice I dislike fruit juice

I like alcoholic beverages I dislike alcoholic beverages

I like the initial effects of alcohol I dislike initial effects of alcohol

I like the ultimate effects of alcohol I dislike ultimate effects of alcohol

I like bitter tastes I dislike bitter tastes

I like sour tastes I dislike sour tastes

I like salty tastes I dislike salty tastes

I like starchy tastes I dislike starchytastes

Submitting...

Comment author: Kindly 25 April 2015 04:27:25PM 1 point [-]

Result spoilers: Fb sne, yvxvat nypbuby nccrnef gb or yvaxrq gb yvxvat pbssrr be pnssrvar, naq gb yvxvat ovggre naq fbhe gnfgrf. (Fbzr artngvir pbeeryngvba orgjrra yvxvat nypbuby naq yvxvat gb qevax ybgf bs jngre.)

I haven't done the responsible thing and plotted these (or, indeed, done anything else besides take whatever correlation coefficient my software has seen fit to provide me with), so take with a grain of salt.

Comment author: Eitan_Zohar 24 April 2015 04:08:44PM *  1 point [-]

Fruit juice is twinned. Can you edit these polls?

Comment author: Kindly 24 April 2015 06:32:14PM 0 points [-]

I believe editing polls resets them, so there's no reason to do it if it's just an aesthetically unpleasant mistake that doesn't hurt the accuracy of the results.

Comment author: TomStocker 23 April 2015 01:58:32PM 2 points [-]

Obviously. Just important to remember that extremity of suffering is something we frequently fail to think well about.

Comment author: Kindly 23 April 2015 02:34:33PM 5 points [-]

Absolutely. We're bad at anything that we can't easily imagine. Probably, for many people, intuition for "torture vs. dust specks" imagines a guy with a broken arm on one side, and a hundred people saying 'ow' on the other.

The consequences of our poor imagination for large numbers of people (i.e. scope insensitivity) are well-studied. We have trouble doing charity effectively because our intuition doesn't take the number of people saved by an intervention into account; we just picture the typical effect on a single person.

What, I wonder, are the consequence of our poor imagination for extremity of suffering? For me, the prison system comes to mind: I don't know how bad being in prison is, but it probably becomes much worse than I imagine if you're there for 50 years, and we don't think about that at all when arguing (or voting) about prison sentences.

Comment author: DanielLC 22 April 2015 03:38:47AM 2 points [-]

(I obviously hand over the $1000 first, before trying to appeal to the law.)

Why? People who use the strategy of always paying don't live any longer than people who use the strategy of never paying. They also save money and get to find out a week in advance if they'd die so they can get their affairs in order.

Comment author: Kindly 22 April 2015 04:18:45AM 0 points [-]

That wasn't obvious to me. It's certainly false that "people who use the strategy of always paying have the same odds of losing $1000 as people who use the strategy of never paying". This means that the oracle's prediction takes its own effect into account. When asking about my future, the oracle doesn't ask "Will Kindly give me $1000 or die in the next week?" but "If hearing a prophecy about it, will Kindly give me $1000 or die in the next week?"

Hearing the prediction certainly changes the odds that the first clause will come true; it's not obvious to me (and may not be obvious to the oracle, either) that it doesn't change the odds of the second clause.

It's true that if I precommit to the strategy of not giving money in this specific case, then as long as many other people do not so precommit, I'm probably safe. But if nobody gives the oracle money, the oracle probably just switches to a different strategy that some people are vulnerable to. There is certainly some prophecy-driven exploit that the oracle can use that will succeed against me; it's just a question of whether that strategy is sufficiently general that an oracle will use it on people. Unless an oracle is out to get me in particular.

Comment author: DanielLC 21 April 2015 10:33:47PM 1 point [-]

Doesn't blackmail require that the oracle threaten you somehow? They're just predicting the future. They will not take any action against you regardless of whether or not you pay.

On the other hand, if oracles did this a lot and people payed them frequently, it probably would become illegal.

Comment author: Kindly 22 April 2015 12:19:56AM *  0 points [-]

You're saying that it's common knowledge that the oracle is, in fact, predicting the future; is this part of the thought experiment?

If so, there's another issue. Presumably I wouldn't be giving the oracle $1000 if the oracle hadn't approached me first; it's only a true prediction of the future because it was made. In a world where actual predictions of the future are common, there should be laws against this, similar to laws against blackmail (even though it's not blackmail).

(I obviously hand over the $1000 first, before trying to appeal to the law.)

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 21 April 2015 04:17:53PM 1 point [-]

"Statisticians think everything is normally distributed" seems to be one of those weirdly enduring myths. I'd love to know how it gets propagated.

Comment author: Kindly 21 April 2015 09:32:44PM 0 points [-]

Given that I remember spending a year of AP statistics only doing calculations with things we assumed to be normally distributed, it's not an unreasonable objection to at least some forms of teaching statistics.

Hopefully people with statistics degrees move beyond that stage, though.

Comment author: Emily 21 April 2015 08:58:24AM 0 points [-]

This is interesting, because it's almost crazy to me that you'd call a strawberry sour - almost as crazy as calling it bitter! Strawberries are really really sweet in my experience. (Unless it was a very unripe one, I suppose?) Although, I'm not hugely keen on them because of texture issues, so possibly I just haven't picked up on sourness...? Sometimes I think I don't taste foods as well when I'm nervous about potential texture variations (for some reason I can get a strong "yuck" reaction from this).

Comment author: Kindly 21 April 2015 11:56:33AM 0 points [-]

There are varieties of strawberries that are not sour at all, so I suppose it's possible that you simply have limited experience with strawberries. (Well, you probably must, since you don't like them, but maybe that's the reason you don't think they're sour, as opposed to some fundamental difference in how you taste things.)

I actually don't like the taste of purely-sweet strawberries; the slightly-sour ones are better. A very unripe strawberry would taste very sour, but not at all sweet, and its flesh would also be very hard.

In response to Self-verification
Comment author: Kindly 20 April 2015 01:30:40AM 7 points [-]

Do you have access to the memory wiping mechanism prior to getting your memory wiped tomorrow?

If so, wipe your memory, leaving yourself a note: "Think of the most unlikely place where you can hide a message, and leave this envelope there." The envelope contains the information you want to pass on.

Then, before your memory is wiped tomorrow, leave yourself a note: "Think of the most unlikely place where you can hide a message, and open the envelope hidden there."

Hopefully, your two memory-wiped selves should be sufficiently similar that the unlikely places they think of will coincide. At the same time, the fact that there is an envelope in the unlikely place you just thought of should be evidence that it came from you.

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