Comment author: Yvain 19 May 2011 12:56:25PM *  23 points [-]

The meta-analysis you cite is moderately convincing, but only moderately. They had enough different analyses such that some would come out significant by pure chance. Aspirin was found to have an effect on 15-year-mortality significant only at the .05 level, and aspirin was found not to have a significant effect 20-year-mortality, so take it with a grain of salt. There was also some discussion in the literature about how it's meta-analyzing studies performed on people with cardiac risk factors but not bleed risk factors, and so the subjects may have been better candidates for aspirin than the general population.

The Wikipedia quote you give is referring to secondary prevention, which means "prevention of a disease happening again in someone who's already had the disease". Everyone agrees aspirin is useful for secondary prevention, but there are a lot of cases where something useful for secondary prevention isn't as good for primary. In primary prevention, aspirin doesn't get anywhere near a tenth reduction in mortality (although it does seem to have a lesser effect).

I would say right now there's enough evidence that people who enjoy self-experimentation are justified in trying low-dose aspirin and probably won't actively hurt themselves (assuming they check whether they're at special risk of bleeds first), but not enough evidence that doctors should be demonized for not telling everyone to do it.

Comment author: LukeStebbing 17 January 2012 03:12:12AM *  1 point [-]

Aspirin was found to have an effect on 15-year-mortality significant only at the .05 level, and aspirin was found not to have a significant effect 20-year-mortality, so take it with a grain of salt.

Can you provide your reference for this? I looked at the meta-analysis and what I assume is the 20-year follow-up of five RCTs (the citations seem to be paywalled), and both mention 20-year reduction in mortality without mentioning 15-year reductions or lack thereof.

Edit: Never mind, I found it, followed immediately by

the effect on post-trial deaths was diluted by a transient increase in risk of vascular death in the aspirin groups during the first year after completion of the trials (75 observed vs 46 expected, OR 1·69, 1·08–2·62, p=0·02), presumably due to withdrawal of trial aspirin.

I'd like to see 20-year numbers for people who maintained the trial (and am baffled that they didn't randomly select such a subgroup).

Comment author: Alicorn 19 May 2011 06:44:28AM *  4 points [-]

I do not have debilitating, world-shattering migraines. I just get headaches. More days than not. I have one right now. My mom once had a headache for an entire year. (This remains a medical mystery.) I have on occasion had headaches that lasted so long that I expected to imitate her, although so far I don't think I've actually broken a full week (with breaks provided by ibuprofen).

I actually don't usually medicate them. I do that when they are so bad that they wake me up in the middle of the night, or when they occur early in the day; otherwise I let sleep take care of them.

The one time I tried aspirin for pain relief, I don't remember what it was for, although a headache was likely. I do remember that it gave me a stomachache which was worse than whatever it was supposed to get rid of for me. I wouldn't expect a tiny dose to have this effect, especially if I took it with food or something, but if I were forced to rely on it as my only analgesic, I would be in something of a quandary.

The question is not, "Which do you dislike more: headaches, or cancer?" It's, "Which do you prefer: effective pain relief for your extended, commonplace pain, or a risk-reducing drug which has not actually been extensively tested in your gender or age group?"

Comment author: LukeStebbing 19 May 2011 04:39:07PM *  0 points [-]

There's also paracetamol (secret identity: acetaminophen (secret secret identity: tylenol)), which is not an NSAID, but I would guess you've tried it too. Fun snacks and/or facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol

Until 2010 paracetamol was believed to be safe in pregnancy (as it does not affect the closure of the fetal ductus arteriosus as other NSAIDs can.) However, in a study published in October 2010 it has been linked to infertility in the posterior adult life of the unborn.

recent research show some evidence that paracetamol can ease psychological pain

ETA: I just remembered two important contraindications: Don't take more than 2g/day if you drink alcohol, and consider not taking more than 650mg at a time, since that's the FDA's revised recommendation after the old max dosage was shown to alter liver function in some healthy adults.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 May 2011 05:17:28AM 2 points [-]

You've convinced me to look into this.

Cool. I also convinced LukeStebbing, my best friend, to begin taking low-dose aspirin. He researched (i.e. looked up on the Internet) its interaction with moderate alcohol consumption, which I currently don't consume (although if he's right about its health benefits, I should - the problem is that there aren't any massive RCTs demonstrating a clear effect). I'm harassing him now to add a comment about what he learned.

Do you have a link to the metastudy?

The NYT linked to its abstract at The Lancet's website. The full text is behind a paywall.

Have you considered a top level post about this?

If post-ifying long comments is kosher, I could do that - but I really have nothing more to add, except one more thing I remembered. Aspirin and its NSAID relatives share similar-but-different mechanisms of action - aspirin is special because it has irreversible effects, see Wikipedia's article for more info. In particular, this means that other NSAIDs can interfere with aspirin (not in a way that's likely to do nasty damage to you - there are plenty of those interactions - but in a way that blunts aspirin's special effects). As a result, while I used to occasionally take ibuprofen for headaches, when I began low-dose aspirin I stopped doing that. Now, when I have a rare headache, I'll take full-strength aspirin.

Comment author: LukeStebbing 19 May 2011 05:52:10AM *  5 points [-]

I didn't actually do much research; I just went through several pages of hits for aspirin alcohol and low-dose aspirin moderate alcohol. I saw consistent enough information to convince me:

  • never to take them at the same time, sample:

    In a paper published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, researchers at the Veterans Administration Medical Center in the Bronx found that taking aspirin one hour before drinking significantly increases the concentration of alcohol in the blood.

  • that the nasty interactions only seemed to happen at 21+ drinks per week, sample:

    There is no proof that mild to moderate alcohol use significantly increases the risk of upper gastrointestinal bleeding in patients taking aspirin, especially if the aspirin is taken only as needed. However, people who consumed at least 3-5 drinks daily and who regularly took more than 325 mg of aspirin did have a high risk of bleeding.

That, in conjunction with the 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, was enough to convince me to combine 81mg of aspirin in the morning with 0-3 US standard drinks in the evening at an average of 1.0/day. I'd like more information, but I haven't had time to dig it up yet and combining them seemed like a lower-risk provisional decision than inaction.

I recommend you do your own research and talk to your doctor, but maybe someone will find that information to be a helpful starting point.

Comment author: jsalvatier 06 May 2011 05:05:31PM 0 points [-]

I don't understand your impossibility comment, then.

Comment author: LukeStebbing 06 May 2011 05:38:03PM *  3 points [-]

I'm talking about publishing a technical design of Friendliness that's conserved under self-improving optimization without also publishing (in math and code) exactly what is meant by self-improving optimization. CEV is a good first step, but a programmatically reusable solution it is not.

On doing the impossible:

Before you the terrible blank wall stretches up and up and up, unimaginably far out of reach. And there is also the need to solve it, really solve it, not "try your best".

Comment author: jsalvatier 06 May 2011 04:55:05PM 0 points [-]

Isn't CEV an attempt to separate F and AI parts?

Comment author: LukeStebbing 06 May 2011 04:58:19PM 1 point [-]

It's a good first step.

Comment author: Rain 05 May 2011 01:56:13AM *  12 points [-]

I think of it this way:

  • Chance SIAI's AI is Unfriendly: 80%
  • Chance anyone else's AI is Unfriendly: >99%
  • Chance SIAI builds their AI first: 10%
  • Chance SIAI builds their AI first while making all their designs public: <1% (no change to other probabilities)
In response to comment by Rain on SIAI - An Examination
Comment author: LukeStebbing 05 May 2011 10:37:12PM 3 points [-]

If we take those probabilities as a given, they strongly encourage a strategy that increases the chance that the first seed AI is Friendly.

jsalvatier already had a suggestion along those lines:

I wonder if SIAI could publicly discuss the values part of the AI without discussing the optimization part.

A public Friendly design could draw funding, benefit from technical collaboration, and hopefully end up used in whichever seed AI wins. Unfortunately, you'd have to decouple the F and AI parts, which is impossible.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 05 May 2011 04:44:39PM 1 point [-]

I'm confused by this in three ways. Unless I'm mistaken, in 2009

  • Eliezer was not married
  • Michael was married
  • Paying higher salaries to married than to single people is a questionable policy, and probably illegal
Comment author: LukeStebbing 05 May 2011 07:07:33PM 8 points [-]

SIAI seems to be paying the minimum amount that leaves each worker effective instead of scrambling to reduce expenses or find other sources of income. Presumably, SIAI has a maximum that it judges each worker to be worth, and Eliezer and Michael are both under their maximums. That leaves the question of where these salaries fall in that range.

I believe Michael and Eliezer are both being paid near their minimums because they know SIAI is financially constrained and very much want to see it succeed, and because their salaries seem consistent with at-cost living in the Bay Area.

I'm speculating on limited data, but the most likely explanation for the salary disparity is that Eliezer's minimum is higher, possibly because Michael's household has other sources of income. I don't think marriage factors into the question.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 04 May 2011 10:11:30PM 7 points [-]

Michael Vassar isn't paying himself enough. $52K/yr is not much in either New York City or San Francisco. Or North Dakota, for that matter.

Comment author: LukeStebbing 05 May 2011 08:40:38AM 0 points [-]

$52k/yr is in line with Eliezer's salary if it's only covering one person instead of two, and judging from these comments, Eliezer's salary is reasonable.

Comment author: handoflixue 23 April 2011 12:19:22AM 0 points [-]

For some reason, the idea that P(God) = 0.5 exactly amuses me. Thank you for the smile :)

Comment author: LukeStebbing 23 April 2011 01:10:53AM *  3 points [-]

It reminded me of one of my formative childhood books:

What is the probability there is some form of life on Titan? We apply the principle of indifference and answer 1/2. What is the probability of no simple plant life on Titan? Again, we answer 1/2. Of no one-celled animal life? Again, 1/2.

--Martin Gardner, Aha! Gotcha

He goes on to demonstrate the obvious contradiction, and points out some related fallacies. The whole book is great, as is its companion Aha! Insight. (They're bundled into a book called Aha! now.)

Comment author: hwc 21 April 2011 10:26:28PM 5 points [-]

In other words, the “Special Committee” will result in slow evaporative cooling?

Comment author: LukeStebbing 22 April 2011 04:03:50PM 12 points [-]

Or in this case, evaporative freezing.

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