Comment author: gjm 06 October 2016 11:58:35PM -1 points [-]

You are misreading Jacobian

Plausible guess, but actually my error was different: I hadn't noticed the bit of Jacobian's comment you quote there; I read what you wrote and made the mistake of assuming it was correct.

Those words "once you've decided on a course of action" were your words. I just quoted them. It does indeed appear that they don't quite correspond to what Jacobian wrote, and I should have spotted that, but the original misrepresentation of Jacobian's position was yours rather than mine.

(But I should make clear that you misrepresented Jacobian's position by making it look less unreasonable and less easy for you to attack, so there's something highly creditable about that.)

Comment author: Lumifer 07 October 2016 02:35:22PM -1 points [-]

I am afraid I cannot claim here any particularly noble motives.

In Jacobian's text there are, basically, two decision points: the first one is deciding to do good, and the second one is deciding on a course of action. You lose empathy in between them. There are (at least) two ways to interpret this. In one when you decide "do good", you make just a very generic decision to do some unspecified good. All the actual choices are at the "course of action" point. In another one at the first decision point you already decide what particular good do you want to work towards and then the second decision point is just the details of implementation.

I didn't want to start dissecting Jacobian's post at this level of detail, so I basically simplified it by saying that you lose your empathy before making some (but not necessarily all) choices. I don't know if you want to classify it as "technically incorrect" :-/

Comment author: waveman 07 October 2016 11:39:25AM *  0 points [-]

One perhaps useful analogy for super-intelligence going wrong is corporations.

We create corporations to serve our ends. They can do things we cannot do as individuals. But in subtle and not-so-subtle ways corporations can behave in very destructive ways. One example might be the way that they pursue profit at the cost of in some cases ruining people's lives, damaging the environment, corrupting the political process.

By analogy it seems plausible that super-intelligences may behave in a way that is against our interests.

It is not valid to assume that a super-intelligence will be smart enough to discern true human interests, or that it will be motivated to act on this knowledge.

Comment author: Lumifer 07 October 2016 02:27:32PM 2 points [-]

Are you saying that no complex phenomenon is going to be able to provide only benefits and nothing but benefits, or are you saying that corporations are, on the balance, bad things and we would have been better to never have invented them?

Comment author: gjm 06 October 2016 06:21:53PM -1 points [-]

You are essentially saying that once you've decided on a course of action, you should turn yourself into a sociopath.

Sounds terrible! But, wait, once you've decided on a course of action. The main problem with sociopaths is that they do horrible things and do them very effectively, right? Someone who chooses what to do like a non-sociopath and then executes those plans like a sociopath may sound scary and creepy and all, but it's not at all clear that it's actually a bad idea.

(I am not convinced that Jacobian is actually arguing that you decide on a course of action and then turn yourself into a sociopath. But even that strawman version of what he's saying is, I think, much less terrible than you obviously want readers to think it is.)

Comment author: Lumifer 06 October 2016 06:55:08PM *  1 point [-]

But, wait, once you've decided on a course of action.

You are misreading Jacobian. Let me quote (emphasis mine):

whenever you have finally decided that you should make the world a better place, at that point emotional empathy is a bias that you should discard when choosing a course of action.

.

but it's not at all clear that it's actually a bad idea.

Such people are commonly called "fanatics".

Comment author: Jacobian 06 October 2016 05:24:41PM *  1 point [-]

With empathy, it turns out that Germans were much more likely to empathize with other Germans than with Juden. With empathy, everyone was cheering as the witches burned.

Moral progress is the progress of knowledge. Slavers in the antebellum South convinced themselves that they were doing a favor to the slaves because the latter couldn't survive by themselves in an advanced economy. A hundred years later, they changed their minds more than they changed their hearts. We (some of us) have learned that coercion is almost always bad, making world saving plans that involve a lot of coercion tend to fail, and preserving people's freedom (blacks, witches and Jews included) increases everyone's welfare.

Is empathy part of one's motivation to even pursue moral progress? Perhaps, but if so it's a very deep part of us that will never be discarded. All I'm saying is that whenever you have finally decided that you should make the world a better place, at that point emotional empathy is a bias that you should discard when choosing a course of action.

Comment author: Lumifer 06 October 2016 05:34:49PM *  2 points [-]

With empathy, it turns out that Germans were much more likely to empathize with other Germans than with Juden. With empathy, everyone was cheering as the witches burned.

This required first to, basically, decide that something which looks like a person is actually not and so is not worthy of empathy. That is not a trivial barrier to overcome. Without empathy to start with, burning witches is much easier.

Moral progress is the progress of knowledge.

This is a very... contentious statement. There are a lot of interesting implications.

All I'm saying is that whenever you have finally decided that you should make the world a better place, at that point emotional empathy is a bias that you should discard when choosing a course of action.

And that is what I'm strongly disagreeing with.

You are essentially saying that once you've decided on a course of action, you should turn yourself into a sociopath.

Comment author: Brillyant 06 October 2016 04:36:12PM *  -2 points [-]

Genetic factors (such as lower IQ)

What is the best source for this in your view?

Historical factors, Cultural factors, Economic factors

Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?

It seems obvious to me that it does, and that the effects are wide and deep, as slavery (and Jim Crow) is relatively recent history—We're only a handful of generations from a time where a race of people was enslaved and systemically kept from accumulating wealth and education.

...I don't think a reasonable open discussion is possible.

Meh. Maybe. I'd like to believe I'm a reasonable guy. My views on these issues are largely ignorant and I'm open to learning.

Comment author: Lumifer 06 October 2016 05:07:42PM *  5 points [-]

What is the best source for this in your view?

The raw data is plentiful -- look at any standardized test scores (e.g. SAT) by race. For a full-blown argument in favor see e.g. this (I can't check the link at the moment, it might be that you need to go to the Wayback Machine to access it). For a more, um, mainstream discussion see Charles Murray's The Bell Curve. Wikipedia has more links you could pursue.

Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?

My view is that history is important and that outcomes are path-dependent. Slavery and segregation are crucial parts of the history of American blacks.

open to learning

Your social circles might have a strong reaction to you coming to anything other than the approved conclusions...

Comment author: Lumifer 06 October 2016 03:11:50PM 3 points [-]

So, if the emotional empathy should be discarded, why should I help all those strangers? The only answer that the link suggests is "social propriety".

But social propriety is a fickle thing. Sometimes it asks you to forgive the debts of the destitute, and sometimes it asks you to burn the witches. Without empathy, why shouldn't you cheer at the flames licking the evil witch's body? Without empathy, if there are some kulaks or Juden standing in the way of the perfect society, why shouldn't you kill them in the most efficient manner at your disposal?

Comment author: Brillyant 05 October 2016 09:09:47PM 0 points [-]

Can/will you TL;DR your view?

Comment author: Lumifer 06 October 2016 02:52:56PM 3 points [-]

As with any complex phenomenon in a complex system, there is going to be a laundry list of contributing factors, none of which is the cause (in the sense that fixing just that cause will fix the entire problem). We can start with

  • Genetic factors (such as lower IQ)
  • Historical factors, which in turn flow into
  • Cultural factors (such as distrust of the government / law enforcement) and
  • Economic factors (from being poor to having a major presence in the drug trade)

The opinions about the relative weights of these factors are going to differ and in the current political climate I don't think a reasonable open discussion is possible.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 October 2016 08:40:55PM 0 points [-]

I was wondering about that. In what sense is this place a graveyard?

It's too bad really. I love Scott's blog, but I've been looking for something with a format more like LW.

Comment author: Lumifer 05 October 2016 09:06:03PM 0 points [-]

In what sense is this place a graveyard?

A quiet place from which most souls have departed, but which references a lot of accomplishments in days past.

I, too, think the SSC's comment format is unfortunate, but it's up to Scott to do something about it. In fact, I think he treats it as a feature to avoid comment overload.

Comment author: Brillyant 05 October 2016 08:24:15PM 0 points [-]

Why is this?

Comment author: Lumifer 05 October 2016 09:00:47PM 3 points [-]

You asked why is "the incidence of police encounters with blacks elevated". This is a direct answer.

If you want to know the reasons for different crime rates, this is going to get long and complicated.

Comment author: Brillyant 05 October 2016 07:02:37PM -1 points [-]

The problem is that the statistics don't show the claimed bias. Normalized on a per-police-encounter basis, white cops (or cops-in-general) don't appear to shoot black suspects more often than they shoot white suspects. However, police interact with black people more frequently, so the absolute proportion of black shooting victims is elevated.

Can you provide any sources for this?

The fact that the incidence of police encounters with blacks is elevated would be the actual social problem worth addressing, but the reasons for the elevated incidence of police-black encounters do not make a nice soundbite.

Is the incidence of police encounters with blacks elevated?

What are the reasons?

Comment author: Lumifer 05 October 2016 08:15:57PM 4 points [-]

What are the reasons?

For example, there were 4,636 murders committed by white people and 5,620 murders committed by black people in 2015 (source). On the per-capita basis this makes the by-white murder rate to be about 2.2 per 100,000 and the by-black murder rate to be about 16.2 per 100,000.

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