Comment author: MattRivers 18 October 2011 02:02:08PM *  0 points [-]

Don't partisan news reporting, talk shows and organised astroturf movements considerably influence people's opinions (to the point of sometimes voting against their own interest)? Now could different groups be more exposed/ susceptible to this?

Comment author: MattRivers 14 October 2011 06:31:13AM 1 point [-]

Isn't it worth getting some experience actually seeing what different organizations work like? (or maybe you've already done this, though that is not the impression I get from the post )

Top management consulting firms are a very efficient way to cover the experience/ credibility/ basic_knowledge/ contacts fields, but require a high tolerance for bullshit (and long hours/ travel)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 11 October 2011 02:43:18AM 5 points [-]

It seems that using factors that cause good/bad job performance is normal hiring procedure whereas using factors that only correlate with good/bad job performance is statistical discrimination (thx for the link Emile)

So using things like test scores, impressions from interviews, etc., is statistical discrimination?

Comment author: MattRivers 11 October 2011 06:30:00AM *  0 points [-]

It seems that using factors that cause good/bad job performance is normal hiring procedure whereas using factors that only correlate with good/bad job performance is statistical discrimination

So using things like test scores, impressions from interviews, etc., is statistical discrimination?

hmmm. Yes that statement is probably not correct. I guess your examples are observations that correlate with factors that cause good/bad job performance. Why is it more acceptable? Maybe because the link is much clearer/ correlation is much stronger?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 10 October 2011 05:33:02PM 6 points [-]

These are groupings for which people have absolutely no control. It is unfair that top group B people need to systematically overcome this prior.

People don't have control over their IQ either.

Comment author: MattRivers 10 October 2011 10:22:48PM *  1 point [-]

Good point (acknowledging wedrifid's caveat) but one could argue IQ is often directly relevant to job performance, whereas race is not ("discriminating" based on ability-to-do-the-job is probably ok, even if mostly genetic).

It seems that using factors that cause good/bad job performance is normal hiring procedure whereas using factors that only correlate with good/bad job performance is statistical discrimination (thx for the link Emile)

Comment author: Prismattic 10 October 2011 03:03:38AM *  12 points [-]

I've noticed that even on Lesswrong, there is such a thing as knowledge that it is deemed better not to know. Apparently this is referred to as the basilisk's gaze (I've yet to manage to read anything deemed dangerous here before it was deleted, so I could be wrong in the details of that).

It seems to me that a lot of the "Don't suggest that there are racial differences in IQ" position is actually based on a hidden belief that looking at the possibility of racial differences is gazing at a basilisk.

Suppose you are an employer hiring for a position, using an examination where performance is correlated with intelligence. It is essentially harmless to take the position, "My prior is that whites have higher IQs on average than blacks, so I expect the average score of the white applicants to be higher than the average score of the black applicants."

What the opponents of acknowledging racial differences are worried about is that the employer will also take the step of saying "This particular black applicant scored exceptionally well on the examination, but since I know that blacks in the aggregate have lower IQs, I'm going to treat my prior and the examination as separate bits of knowledge and scale my assessment of the candidate's intelligence downward from what the exam alone would suggest." As opposed to having the prior be swamped by the examination.

This is on top of (legitimately) expecting that the average person won't understand the difference between the layman's concept of "race" and the more scientifically rigorous concepts of "population" and "cohort."

In the wider world, unlike on Lesswrong, openly coming out and saying "Considering this idea is like gazing at a basilisk" would end disasterously. So people go with "This idea is false" instead.

Comment author: MattRivers 10 October 2011 09:46:31AM *  2 points [-]

I would agree with your explanation.

Also, in the job example once you get to interview/test stage the observations should indeed clearly swamp out all priors based on what group the candidate belongs to. However earlier in the process (when sifting through thousands of similar resumes) could these priors still retain some importance?

Basically I would separate 2 types of discrimination:

  • (1) I will not hire a person from group B because I don't like people from group B. Or I believe people from group B will almost certainly perform less well than people from group A.

  • (2) I know the prior distribution of job performance for groups A and B (A is higher on average). After taking into account my obervations (looking at a resume) about 1 candidate from each group, the posterior distribution indicates that the candidate from group A is expected to perform better. So I hire A. Had I ignored the prior I would have hired B.

(1) is sub-optimal clearly unacceptable. (2) seems theoretically optimal and appears to be used for many groupings, like [went to a top university] vs. [medium university - same gpa/experience]

However (2) is completely unacceptable for other groupings (like race). Possible explanations:

  • It has no impact anyway. For these groupings any differences in priors would be so tiny that they would immediately get overwhelmed by the slightest job application relevant info
  • These are groupings for which people have absolutely no control. It is unfair that top group B people need to systematically overcome this prior.
  • In practice no one will be able to apply this properly and everyone will end up amplifying priors and giving them way too much importance, so it is best to not go near it.