Comment author: CronoDAS 08 February 2016 05:10:14PM 5 points [-]

I think my girlfriend needs psychiatric help - she has visual hallucinations and other symptoms I've promised to keep confidential. She doesn't want to see a psychiatrist, as she and her family attribute her symptoms to supernatual causes; they believe that the "spirits" she sees actually exist. (Another family member - not a blood relative - also has psychiatric symptoms that are being treated and managed.) I really don't want to go into further details because one time I promised not to tell my psychiatrist about her issues and then told him anyway and she freaked out when I admitted to telling him. (I admitted it because I can't lie for shit and suck at keeping secrets, but that's beside the point.)

Any advice? ("Break up with your girlfriend" will be ignored, unless you can convince me that it would be better for her if I left her.)

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 10 February 2016 02:43:59AM 2 points [-]

It seems that part of the problem might be that she is afraid of being judged crazy or the equivalent. Having someone talk to her about her being crazy (which is how she will probably perceive it) seems like it runs a risk of being counter-productive. I think so far I've only told you what you are implying or saying.

If I have that right, you might think about finding a story -- fictional or biographical -- written from the perspective of someone suffering from similar symptoms and who resolved it through treatment. If she identifies with the protagonist, it might create some willingness to listen to alternatives.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 08 February 2016 07:17:22PM *  -5 points [-]

What's missing from the fable is the idea that sex also has costs and risks for women, not to mention that women have preferences which are as important to them as sexual preferences are for men. The last bit isn't all that's wrong with the post.

This is the moderator speaking-- I want an answer for how you could think it was reasonable to leave out female preferences.

At the same time, there are real problems with the way that men who are bad at attracting women are treated. Not all of those problems come from feminism.

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 10 February 2016 02:36:13AM 5 points [-]

OK, trying to be fair to the original poster, since it appears that he doesn't plan on responding directly in public. Please take this in the nature of "even the devil deserves an advocate" and an exercise in resisting the fundamental attribution error. It's also informed by the thought that the implication that someone is actually advocating rape is an exception claim, so must be supported by exception evidence. And it's informed by a cussed refusal to be mind-killed.

Take a look at the quantity of words. About half of the piece happens before the foreign girls show up. That seems to be a metaphor for people who can't get sex through the types of relationships that the median person has. The second half is almost entirely given over to the foreign girls arriving, trafficking in branch-lifting, and getting prohibited from the community, with the result that the protagonist is vilified. That seems to be a metaphor for prostitution, its illegalization, and the effects on someone found to be buying the services of a prostitute.

Then we get one awful sentence. I'm not justifying it if it means what others have read it to mean, and I'll come back to it at the end.

If by leaving out female preferences, you are referring to just that one sentence, I tend to agree with you that the one sentence is reprehensible if intended. But I don't think that criticism is fair for any of the rest. The first half of the piece is showing the effect of preferences (female in context, but not gendered by necessity). When you make a point, it doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, especially if your goal is to draw attention to some aspect that you believe has had has had insufficient attention. The second half of the piece actually respects some female preferences. Specifically, it respects the preferences of those who prefer to be sex workers. It points out one of the negative effects of oppressing those preferences (by ejecting the foreign girls). Again, it isn't balanced, but I don't really think it has to be. Finally, it points out the oppressive rationale for the oppressive act (of ejecting the foreign girls).

Then it goes off the rails with a single sentence. The piece would have been far more effective if the native girl speaking near the end had imprisoned him for paying a foreign girl to lift the burning branch. The sentence is far from clear to me. I'm not certain that its author really recognized that the metaphor would be to rape. To some degree, it is fair to say, "too bad, that's the risk you take in writing in metaphor!" But it's also fair for us to ask whether one sentence should be taken as such significant evidence of vile character, and whether some other meaning was intended. Specifically, putting a girl under the branch hasn't been how the boys get out from under the branch throughout the rest of the story, so it's not the established metaphor for sex. It could be that the point here was not forcing the girl to lift the branch (which would be metaphorical rape). It could be that the point was to subject girls to being under the branch (which would be metaphorical undesired celibacy). It's not a great metaphor that way, either, because the boys got under the branches in the first place by some strange freak of nature. ("Oh, I didn't see that burning branch falling on me, so now I'm stuck"?) But it might have been intended as "see how you like it." That itself is an unattractive kind of position, but it is quite different from rape.

One final point is that I didn't interpret the criticism here as being directed to feminism. I took it to be directed toward government messing around in things where it ought not and towards the ideal of sex as an expression of romantic love. I read it that one solution that was rejected in the first half was essentially "friends with benefits" -- something that I doubt would find universal condemnation among feminists, and certainly not among most feminists before the 1980's. But the danger with metaphors is that the reader brings more to them than the reader brings to a straightforward statement.

And that's pretty much exhausted my store of charitable interpretation, with apologies to those who would prefer that this mind-killing comment thread simply die a quiet death.

Comment author: gjm 09 February 2016 10:36:38AM 6 points [-]

Everyone is "banworthy", in the sense that the moderators have the power to ban anyone for any reason and so far as I know there are no defined limits on their actions.

This particular post

  • is in no way actually on topic for LW
  • appears to have been the last straw in leading one long-standing contributor to give up on LW
  • fits right into an anti-LW narrative that's already not so uncommon ("LW has become a sinkhole of racists and sexists and fascists, because the site's supposedly rational norms give no way to make them unwelcome but they make everyone else feel unwelcome")
  • seems at the end to be trying to imply that it's unjust for rapists to be punished, if they feel frustrated and upset and the person they rape wasn't very nice to them

and I think some kind of moderator action in response is eminently reasonable. Personally I'd have gone for "This article is not suitable for LW because [...]; I will wait two days so that anyone who wants to preserve what they've written can take a copy, and then delete it; further attempts at posting this sort of thing may result in a ban".

(I think Nancy was right to ask "what about women's preferences?" and right to apply a bit of moderatorial intimidation, but I don't think the two should have gone together.)

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 10 February 2016 01:32:04AM 6 points [-]

Your list of reasons seem to me to be the very reason we have karma. Why does this post deserve moderation in a system where karma sends the message about the community's desire for more of the same?

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 07 February 2016 07:13:19PM 3 points [-]

You have run into the "productivity paradox." This is the problem that, while it seems from first-hand observation that using computers would raise productivity, that rising productivity does not seem to show up in economy-wide statistics. It is something of a mystery. The Wikipedia page on the subject has an OK introduction to the problem.

I'd suggest that the key task is not measuring the productivity of the computers. The task is measuring the change in productivity of the researcher. For that, you must have a measure of research output. You'd probably need multiple proxies, since you can't evaluate it directly. For example, one proxy might be "words of published AI articles in peer-reviewed journals." A problem with this particular proxy is substitution, over long time periods, of self-publication (on the web) for journal publication.

A bigger problem is the quality problem. The quality of a good today is far better than the similar good of 30 years ago. But how much? There's no way to quantify it. Economists usually use some sense that "this year must be really close to last year, so we'll ignore it across small time frames." But that does not help for long time frames (unless you are looking only at the rate of change in productivity rates, such that the productivity rate itself gets swept aside by taking the first derivative, which works fine as long as quality is nor changing disproportionately to productivity). The problem seems much greater if you have to assess the quality of AI research. Perhaps you could construct some kind of complementary metric for each proxy you use, such as "citations in peer-reviewed journals" for each peer-reviewed article you used in the proxy noted above. And you would again have to address the effect of self-publication, this time on quality.

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 12 January 2016 07:03:04PM 1 point [-]

The work of Elinor Ostrom (2009 Nobel prize co-winner in economics) seems relevant. The Wikipedia page on her does a decent introduction. The relevant part of her work was in how societies use customs (other than market transactions) to regulate use of common resources. The relevant observation here is that the customs often seem strange and non-sensical, but they work. She summarized her findings, "A resource arrangement that works in practice can work in theory."

Similarly, the work of Peter Leeson on ordeals seems relevant. Ordeals were medieval methods of determining the outcome of what would today be a lawsuit. An example of an ordeal is (literally) trial by fire or trial by battle. Leeson shows how this facially strange and non-sensical custom actually served its purpose of dispensing justice. His research along these lines is surprising, unorthodox, and amusing.

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 12 January 2016 08:38:52PM 0 points [-]

And similarly, here's a quotation from economist George Stigler: “every durable social institution or practice is efficient.” ("Efficient" has a specific meaning in context. Don't over-extend it to "good" or similar ideas.)

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 12 January 2016 07:03:04PM 1 point [-]

The work of Elinor Ostrom (2009 Nobel prize co-winner in economics) seems relevant. The Wikipedia page on her does a decent introduction. The relevant part of her work was in how societies use customs (other than market transactions) to regulate use of common resources. The relevant observation here is that the customs often seem strange and non-sensical, but they work. She summarized her findings, "A resource arrangement that works in practice can work in theory."

Similarly, the work of Peter Leeson on ordeals seems relevant. Ordeals were medieval methods of determining the outcome of what would today be a lawsuit. An example of an ordeal is (literally) trial by fire or trial by battle. Leeson shows how this facially strange and non-sensical custom actually served its purpose of dispensing justice. His research along these lines is surprising, unorthodox, and amusing.

Comment author: PeteMichaud 28 December 2015 11:34:12PM 1 point [-]

Sure, I'd be happy to--I can share a summary of the plan and what we hope to achieve with it, but before I do that, are there specific questions you'd like answered about it?

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 30 December 2015 04:43:07PM *  1 point [-]

I doubt I know enough to ask good questions. The article has a very bare-bones reference to it, so here are some basic questions:

  1. What is the high level objective?
  2. Describe the training from the outside: when, where, who, how much?
  3. Describe the training from the inside: what gets taught, what gets learned?
  4. What role do you expect mentors to play?
  5. How do you support the mentors in playing that role?
Comment author: Mirzhan_Irkegulov 24 December 2015 10:54:21AM 0 points [-]

I somewhat support what you're saying, but I also believe that 100% filtering would lead to a filter bubble. Suppose you were much smarter than you are now and upon reflection realized Effective Altruism is super-duper important. But now you've filtered EA-related articles on LW and you will no longer be exposed to it.

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 30 December 2015 04:40:21PM 0 points [-]

That is true with an assumption. The assumption is that I will regularly return to LessWrong and read EA articles if I see them. My own assessment of myself is that I won't, so the assumption would be false. (I could be wrong.) I generally avoid EA articles because I'm not all that interested in them. No knock on the field, it's just not why I'm here. But the fact that I have to wade through articles on EA and all the other topics I don't care about deters me from returning to LessWrong, which I do less frequently than I wish I would, because I miss the optimal time to comment on articles.

Comment author: MaximumLiberty 23 December 2015 11:42:22PM 2 points [-]

Can you explain more about your Mentorship Training Program?

Comment author: Lumifer 23 December 2015 04:18:34PM 1 point [-]

by someone who understands them better than I do

Why would such a someone commit to spending a considerable amount of time predigesting papers for your convenience?

In response to comment by Lumifer on LessWrong 2.0
Comment author: MaximumLiberty 23 December 2015 10:58:29PM *  0 points [-]

I think the key part of that sentence was "I'd like ..."

I can think of several reasons why someone might want to do such a thing.

  • They want to begin or enhance a reputation for being an authority in the field.
  • They want the organization that they represent to begin or enhance its reputation in the field and to popularize the particular spin that their organization places on such information.
  • They are studying the field anyway, so the investment is essentially prettying up their own precis of materials they are reading anyway.
  • They want to help the LW community and this is the way they choose to contribute. (For example, if there was interest in the field of law in which I specialize, I'd do the same, but I can;t see that fitting in here.)

Then, empirically, I note that people (who know these fields better than I) do actually post this kind of content here. But I don't see the karma system recognizing them for that contribution as much as being the "editor" of the whatever section would recognize them.

(Subsequently edited for terrible formatting)

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