I felt the idea sounded like it would be something to look into
Then why didn't you look into the evidence for it before writing a post?
I felt the idea sounded like it would be something to look into
Then why didn't you look into the evidence for it before writing a post?
3 reasons:
I'm the dumb kid on the block when it comes to less wrong. (If any of the census or my behavior in posting something that signals against the Less Wrong tribal stance are any indicators.)
I'm not (yet) a scientist, and I couldn't find any studies on this. Take into account that less wrong is "heavier" in scientists than usual for an online community, and I hoped that it would be something someone would either know about or find interesting.
This is the discussion forum, and I was hoping that there might be just that, discussion.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs ... on acid!
Its worth a read for sheer comedy value IMO.
If that's what it takes, I just wanted people to look this over and say what they thought, otherwise I wouldn't have posted to Discussion.
So far the rarest group is the most common group. Who'd a guessed?
That might be due to my reference to HPMOR, and it's tribal signaling. In hindsight that may have been a poor decision.
Minor point: The colloquial use of "deconstruction" is very vague. I suggest "analysis" or "description".
Are there really good statistics about what proportion of people are at these levels?
Shouldn't there be something about how consistently a person can maintain one of the higher-numbered points of view?
I'm someone from a background of the neobehaviorist perspective in psychology with some cognitivist leanings. I usually just dismiss work like this offhand as most likely pseudoscience. Strike one is that this work is partially derived from theories which I already know to be pseudoscience such as Maslow's theory of self-actualization. Strike two is that he is dismissive of many elements of behaviorism. However, I'm willing to be persuaded. What are the key elements of falsifiability within these theories? What experimental research has been conducted to test the validity of these theories; either in whole or in part? It doesn't help your cause that your in-depth link contains in the abstract:
Although the literature has produced a number of propositions, the notion that a leader's order of development should impact his or her leadership effectiveness or managerial performance has generated the most research. We found mixed support for this proposition as well as a number of limitations in the research in general. To have a greater impact on the leadership field, constructive-developmental theory needs to generate more robust research, to link more clearly with on-going streams of leadership research, and to explore the contribution of aspects of the theory beyond individual order of development.
Ok, I'm sorry if this post looks like it's speaking for CDT being correct. As listed in the header this is written based on Gwerley's post, and was intended to simplify the idea. (and add context to better imagine it)
I felt the idea sounded like it would be something to look into, as at least the first two levels seem like they are (more or less) correct. (I still wouldn't think this would be a terribly useful theory if applied to humans only, as the orders of mind seem like they're more evolutionary (notes 3 and 4) than developmental.)
In a recent post Gwerley covered Constructive Developmental Theory, and Subject-Object Notation. I'll be going through a basic description of the ideas, as well as adding related ideas from the Four Player Model.
Constructive Developmental Theory is a Theory of Mind that splits the development of people into five levels, though the levels each have a unique set of advantages/disadvantages, not being "better" or "worse" than one another.1 This theory is largely based on if the individual is subject to something or able to hold it as an object using meta cognition, such that each level holds the previous levels as special cases.2 This progress makes it so a higher order mind will notice things a lower order cannot.
*With the bulk of people being on this level it's important to keep status with them. Failure to do so risks loosing momentum on any movement you're working on. (Trans humanism, Cryonics or FAI being the three that jump to mind with this community.)
*While less essential than Socialized Minds, Self-Authoring Minds are a good indicator that your movement is healthy and still able to adapt to changes. Being the primary source of said changes fourth order minds are important in order to avoid things like an Ann Rand cult.
*The most useful and the least essential of the groups. They are able to fill any role needed, but are made fully redundant by a enough lower order minds in the necessary roles.
5I was unable to find the six percent not accounted for above.
Subject-Object Notation is a way of showing where relative to two incompatible ideas you are. For example:
The Instrumental Mind (2) and The Socialized Mind (3)
Using Subject-Object Notation on Constructive Developmental Theory yields 21 unique "levels" of development.
1 1(2) 1/2 2/1 2(1)
2 2(3) 2/3 3/2 3(2)
3 3(4) 3/4 4/3 4(3)
4 4(5) 4/5 5/4 5(4)
5
Movers: The ones making changes to the current group behaviour.
Follower: Those who are continuing the current move.
Opposers: Those correcting the current move.
Bystanders: The ones watching for anything else the group should be looking out for.
Socialized Mind |
Self-Authoring Mind |
Self-Transforming Mind |
|
Moving |
This a rare state for a Socialized Mind. The inherent risk to status makes even potentially large gains less appealing. |
A natural role for a Self-Authoring Mind, being independent of the group allows them to propose changes, though that is limited by their beliefs and ideologies. |
Much the same as Self-Authors Self-Transformers are suitable for filling the role of mover, though with larger amounts of resources to draw from. |
Following |
At this level people are defined by tribal status making them excellent followers. |
Following is not a role a level 4 will fall into unless they arrive at the conclusion on their own. |
While not as difficult as it was as a Self-Author following is still the weakest point of the higher levels due largely to the absence of cultural influence in personal thought. |
Opposing |
Individuals at this level do not oppose without prompting, and will likely try to smooth over any mover/Opposer conflict. |
At least as much as Moving, Opposing suits a 4th order mind, because even if they agree they are able to play Devil's Advocate as disagreement doesn't undermine their sense of self. |
Opposing is a role Transforming Minds fill with little work. The vast amount of viewpoints they can hold allow them to freely choose a good response to Movers. |
Bystanding |
Similar to opposing third order minds don't make very good bystanders, as that would necessitate leaving the group thought process that defines them. |
A Self-Author is a suitable, if slightly biased, Bystander for much the same reason they are good Opposers. |
This is the role that this level truly excels in due to the shear number of viewpoints they are able to use. |
Authors Notes:
1The lack of "better" levels seems to indicate that each level is a local optima with at least a few required for a stable society.
2This would seem to indicate that higher orders are capable of everything that a lower order is, motivation not withstanding.
3This level includes both human babies and animals.
4In addition to children some animals have pack/herd/pod mentalities that would appear to be at least 2(3).
5I would predict 5+ percent in level 2, and only the wild children in level 1, (those children who are raised by wild animals) with even some of them as level 2.
*This is the relation to Four Player Model
Attributions:
http://developmentalobserver.blog.com/2010/06/09/an-overview-of-constructive-developmental-theory-cdt/ - Three highest levels of CDT
http://sustainabilitythinking.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/constructive-developmental-theory/ - less detailed description of all five
http://developmentalobserver.blog.com/2011/06/08/additional-resources-on-adult-development/ - Assorted links
http://developmentalobserver.blog.com/2011/02/21/kantors-four-player-model-through-the-lens-of-cdt/ - Kantor's Four Player Model
http://malcolmocean.com/2014/10/subject-object-notation/ - Subject-Object Notation
http://www.ccl.org/leadership/pdf/landing/constructivedevtheory.pdf - CDT more in depth
I appreciate the encouragement (Karma), but what I need is further material. I don't have the material to make this into something (very) useful, and don't know where else to look. (Other than tearing apart the local libraries psychology sections which has thus far yielded Freud, Freud, Developmental Psychology, and more Freud.)
After having viewed a recent post by Gworley I noticed that the material was deliberately opaque*. It's not as complicated as it seems, and should be able to be taught to people at lower than "Level 4" on Kegan's Constructive Developmental Theory. The only serious block I saw was the ridiculous gap in inferential distance.
With that in mind I was hoping someone might have recommendations on even tangentially related material as what I have now appears to be insufficient. (Simplifying CDT appears to be manageable, but not particularly useful without further material like Kantor's Four Player Model and Subject-Object Notation.)
*edit: Not Gworley's, it was Kegan's material that was opaque.
Rule #1: don't talk about starting a cult in a public place.
...If I actually wanted to start a cult I wouldn't post it. I was thinking something of starting something akin to the secular solstice. (Though I doubt most people could tell a cult from a group like this.)
Also Rule #74: When I create a multimedia presentation of my plan designed so that my five-year-old advisor can easily understand the details, I will not label the disk "Project Overlord" and leave it lying on top of my desk.
(We are on the Evil Overlord checklist right? I never finished copying it down.)
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In case it wasn't obvious, I was laughing at Timothy Leary's version, not yours.
Thank you for the clarification, but it doesn't bother me either way.