Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 11:50:45PM 0 points [-]

But these are the things pretty much everybody does while learning languages.

Comment author: Nanashi 28 May 2015 12:40:55PM 2 points [-]

Well of course they do. Because these things are necessary to learning a language. This is the 20% that's most efficient. By definition someone who puts in 100% of the effort will be doing what I did.

The efficiency of this approach revolves around what you don't do. You're excising the 80%. I didn't spend long hours learning katakana, hiragana and kanji. I didn't learn the more complex tenses and conjugations. I didn't spend time on vocabulary words that are highly situational. Contrast this to a typical Japanese textbook.

Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 10:47:58PM 0 points [-]

I meant something like this.

... take part in routine conversations; write & understand simple written text; make notes & understand most of the general meaning of lectures, meetings, TV programmes and extract basic information from a written document.

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 11:27:19PM *  1 point [-]

I'll give a more in depth breakdown soon but for now, I'd probably take a similar approach that I took to learning to read Japanese : learn basic sentence structure, learn top 150ish vocabulary words, avoid books written in non-romaji. Practice hearing spoken word by listening to speeches and following their transcriptions. My exception protocol for unrecognized words was to look them up. And for irregular sentence structure, to guess based on context. It worked for watching movies and reading, mostly but as you can tell, yoi kakikomu koto ga dekimasen*. I'd have to do some thinking on the writing part, it would most likely involve sticking to simple sentences.

*thats terrible Japanese for "I cannot write well". I think. I hope.

Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 09:56:17PM *  1 point [-]

Nice, but beware reasoning after you've written the bottom line.

As for the actual content, I basically fail to see its area of applicability. For sufficiently complex skills, like say, math, languages or football decision-trees & howto-guides approach will likely fail as too shallow; for isolated skills like changing a tire complex learning approaches are an overkill -- just google it and follow the instructions. Can you elaborate languages example further? Because, you know, learning a bunch of phrases from phrasebook to be able to say a few words in a foreign country is a non-issue. Actually learning language is. How would you apply your system to achieve intermediate-level language knowledge? Any other non-trivial skills learning example would also suffice. What skills have you trained by using your learning system, and how?

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 10:29:10PM *  1 point [-]

Also, when you say "intermediate level language knowledge", what exactly do you mean? One of the key steps is defining exactly what you want to accomplish and why. I don't want to create a whole write-up, only to realize that you and I have two different definitions of "intermediate level language knowledge".

So if you'd tell me the "what" and the "why", I'll do the rest.

Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 09:56:17PM *  1 point [-]

Nice, but beware reasoning after you've written the bottom line.

As for the actual content, I basically fail to see its area of applicability. For sufficiently complex skills, like say, math, languages or football decision-trees & howto-guides approach will likely fail as too shallow; for isolated skills like changing a tire complex learning approaches are an overkill -- just google it and follow the instructions. Can you elaborate languages example further? Because, you know, learning a bunch of phrases from phrasebook to be able to say a few words in a foreign country is a non-issue. Actually learning language is. How would you apply your system to achieve intermediate-level language knowledge? Any other non-trivial skills learning example would also suffice. What skills have you trained by using your learning system, and how?

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 10:26:49PM *  1 point [-]

Basketball is an example. I'm about to head home so I'll do the ultra-abbreviated TL;DR version:

  1. Goals: Score points, prevent opponent from scoring points.
  2. Archetypes: Offense (2-point), Offense (3-point), Defense
  3. Process How-To: Googled "how to layup", "how to shoot a 3-pointer", and "how to steal a ball" 3a. Process Failure Points: Missing a shot, getting the ball stolen, missing a pass. 3b. Process Difficulties: Anything involving ball handling or dribbling. Defense.
  4. Exception Protocol: On offense: Pass the ball to a better player than myself, or set a pick. On defense: play very close to my opponent. 5a. Avoid anything involving dribbling but not scoring. 5b. Prepare and practice two-point shots. 5c. Focus on getting open for a 3-point shot. Practice consistently shooting from 3-point line.
  5. Get better by playing.

I would say basketball is fairly complex. One thing I didn't mention in the original post (mainly because it starts to get into the "how do individual people learn") but for me, I don't get good at a competitive skill by competing against people who also suck. By getting good enough to be able to play with people who are actually good, it made it easier for me to learn the advanced part of the game faster.

Also, this post has a list of (at least what I think to be) fairly non-trivial skills that I have trained using this method.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 09:31:47PM *  1 point [-]

Practice my "Sorry, I'm from America" line

Err.. that would be the "Why can't you damned furriners speak 'Merican like all the regular folk!" line. You may have been thinking of an "I would like to abjectly apologize for being a Canadian" line... X-D

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 09:44:53PM 0 points [-]

Ha ha, when I first read that, I thought "furriner" was another nickname for Furries and I was very, very confused.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 08:52:06PM 6 points [-]

I do like the idea of explaining why I think the advice works in the first place.

If I may suggest spending some space on explaining why do you think your experience generalizes -- that is, why do you think that your methods will work for people who are not you.

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 09:19:10PM 2 points [-]

I took your advice as well as estimator's into account and added two paragraphs at the beginning to offer 1. Some research showing that many systems follow a distribution where a small portion of work accounts for a large portion of results, and 2. and explanation as to why it's generalizable.

Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 08:14:48PM *  3 points [-]

I've started commenting here recently, but I'm a long time lurker (>1 year). Also, I was speaking about self-help articles in general, not conditional on whether they are posted on LW -- it makes sense, because pretty much anyone can post on LW.

Now I found a somewhat less extreme example of what I think is an OK post on self-help although it doesn't have scientific references, because a) the author told us what actual results he achieved and, more importantly, b) the author explained why he thinks that the advice works in the first place.

Personally, I don't find your post consistent with my observations, but it's not my main objection -- my main objection is that throwing an instruction without any justification is a bad practice, especially on such a controversial topic, especially in a rationalist community.

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 08:48:48PM 2 points [-]

That's totally fine, like I said, your post made sense and was consistent with what I've seen.

I still don't really think that stating my qualifications would do much. In this context, it still just seems too much like bragging. "I helped build a multi-million dollar company, I compete in barbecue competitions and consistently place in the top 10% of the field and was sponsored by a major barbecue website, was ranked in the top 100 players in the world for a popular collectible card game, learned how to code with no formal education (and used that knowledge wrote a somewhat well-received calibration test, and also write a bunch of boring business platforms), wrote an article about a baseball statistic I co-developed and was published in a publication that's important for people who care about baseball stats, learned how to be a carpenter, at one point was a licensed pharmacy technician, blah blah blah"

Even though I'm sure there's a less crass way to phrase it, to me it still sounds exceedingly arrogant. I might be overreacting though. You tell me: if I prefaced my post with that, would you be more or less inclined to take me seriously?

I do like the idea of explaining why I think the advice works in the first place. I will start writing something up about that and append it to the original post.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 27 May 2015 07:16:23PM 2 points [-]

I'm confused about the "strategy" section; it seems largely redundant with the earlier parts.

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 07:50:16PM 3 points [-]

Bad editing on my part. Ill update the post and include the original here for posterity

Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 06:37:23PM 2 points [-]

So, taking a look at what you actually propose to do, this reduces to a) learn some phrases from the tourist phrasebook and b) learn the rest of the language while c) avoiding high-stakes situations where you need language knowledge. Reminds me of this.

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 06:40:51PM *  0 points [-]

Yup, pretty much. To quote myself

TL;DR: The fastest way to learn new skills is to 1. Break it down into enough "recipes" or "how-to" guides that they cover most of what you might encounter, and 2. Figure out how to eloquently ask for help if you don't know what to do.

(Incidentally, the link you posted does not work, it's giving me a 404).

Comment author: estimator 27 May 2015 06:11:06PM 8 points [-]

Articles on such topics are notorious for their average bad quality. Reformulating in Bayesian terms, the prior probability of your statements being true is low, so you should provide some proofs or evidence -- or why I (or anyone) should believe you? Have you actually checked if it works? Have you actually checked if it works for somebody else?

I don't think that personal achievements are a bullet-proof argumentation for such an advice. Still, when I read something like this, I'm pretty sure that it contains valuable information, although it is probably a mistake to follow such advice verbatim anyway. So, if you have Hamming-level credentials, it will help.

As for your article, probably the only way to fix it is to add proofs to your statements. What evidence supports them? Is there any psychological research to back up your claims? Why do you think it is optimal (or near-optimal) way to learn skills?

This is a good self-help article. Can you see the reference list? :)

Comment author: Nanashi 27 May 2015 06:36:07PM *  2 points [-]

Articles on such topics are notorious for their average bad quality.

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that reputation. That's good to know and certainly justifies your skepticism.

All that said, I think one can still evaluate your point (and in my case, my Less Wrong post) based on its internal logic and how consistent it is with one's own observations, without needing research to back it up. It would be easy enough to dismiss your own post for the very reasons you cited. Consider the following:

"In general, people new to a community are notoriously bad at gauging the pulse of said community. To reformulate in Bayesian terms, based on the length of time you've been posting here, the prior probability of your statement being true is low, so shouldn't you provide some proofs or evidence -- or why should I (or anyone) believe you?"

But to me, your logic checks out, and is fairly consistent with my own observations (that most self-help publications tend to be garbage), so that shifts the probabilities significantly in your favor. I'm hoping that people will evaluate my own post by similar criteria, rather than immediately dismissing it.

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