In the second half of the interview we discussed several topics of importance to the LW community including cryonics, unfriendly AI, and eliminating mosquitoes. 

https://soundcloud.com/user-519115521/scott-adams-dilbert-interview

 

Original post: http://bearlamp.com.au/new-music-powers/

---

I have written before about how I am pretty terrible at canvassing music in my head.  This lends to the appalling ability (to musically oriented people) to be able to do things like listen to the same song on repeat 500 times or more in a row without being bothered by it either way.  I never cared more than the sense of "this is interesting but irrelevant" on the idea.

Being indifferent to music has given me the ability to be completely useless at holding a musical preference, or explore the value of music in terms of going to music events, or participating in musical experiences.

---

This week something changed!  Or more accurately last week.  Last week I was listening to a piece for the n'th time, but at the same time was quite badly sleep deprived.  As I was listening the music started falling apart.  Different parts of the music changed volume so that I could isolate different instruments and follow different features of the music.  At the time, being a bit sleep deprived I took it as a warning that maybe it was time to go to bed.  hint hint: your going a little nuts.

Today I noticed I can still do it.  When I am no longer sleep deprived I can pay attention to music in a different way than I used to be able to.  I can single out the drums and only "listen" to that part, or the guitar, or the vocals.  (it's pop music on the radio).  

Of course the reason I bothered to write about it, and the reason that it's interesting is; as half the readers can probably imagine - I told a musical friend of mine that I had developed new powers and he said, 

Wait, people can't normally do that?

So I get to add this to the pile of typical mind, sensory perception assumptions that we make when we interpret our own individual world through our own senses.  What if your's worked a bit differently?  How much would that fundamentally change how you operate as a human?  How much you assume about the world around you and how it works?  And how everyone else works?

---

Question:  What are your natural assumptions about how your senses work?  Have you ever noticed anyone else acting on different basic natural assumptions?

---

Meta: this took 45mins to write.

I log in this morning on a whim, and notice I have -15 karma.  I dig around for a bit and find this:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/nsm/open_thread_jul_25_jul_31_2016/ddjm

To be clear, that's a block of four comments, each at -10, for no apparent obvious good reason other than eugine nier has a vendetta against Elo.  I've apparently just been hit as splash damage, since I had the gall to try posting on an Elo comment thread.

I dig a little more, and I find this:

http://lesswrong.com/user/Elo/overview/

That's Elo's page, and I see a pile of discussion-grade posts that are all bulk downvoted below visibility, again for no apparent obvious good reason.

I find myself incredibly disincentivized to post or comment as a result of this.  My feeble amount of karma has taken literally years to build up, and to see sizable fractions of it wiped out any time I step on a eugine nier landmine is bullshit.  Sure, it's silly to value karma, but I value it anyway and if a year of incidental effort can be burned in two days because one guy wants to be an asshole to me, then I'm done here.

This has been going on for months.  Years even.

I understand the staff of LW are pressed for time.  I understand nobody understands how the code works.  I understand that maintaining the site is hard. However, reality is that which does not go away when we close our eyes, and reality does not care:  no matter how difficult the problems are, the fact remains that this sort of thing is abusive and it is actively driving people off the site.

If you value LW, fix this.  Use the force harder, site owners.

On the other hand, if you want LW to turn into another Kuro5hin, then keep doing what you're doing.

Prediction:  50% odds this post will be downvoted below visibility within two days due to eugine, and will basically disappear without trace.

Prediction:  if this isn't dealt with soon, 50% odds I'll stop visiting LW completely other than as an article archive by year end, because there's no goddamned point in trying to use the discussion system.

Original post: http://bearlamp.com.au/the-barriers-to-the-task/

---

For about two months now I have been putting in effort to run in the mornings.  To make this happen, I had to take away all the barriers to me wanting to do that.  There were plenty of them, and I failed to leave my house plenty of times.  Some examples are:

Making sure I don't need correct clothes - I leave my house shirtless and barefoot, and grab my key on the way out.  

Pre-commitment to run - I take my shirt off when getting into bed the night before, so I don't even have to consider the action in the morning when I roll out of bed.

Being busy in the morning - I no longer plan any appointments before 11am.  Depending on the sunrise (I don't use alarms), I wake up in the morning, spend some time reading things, then roll out of bed to go to the toilet and leave my house.  In Sydney we just passed the depths of winter and it's beginning to get light earlier and earlier in the morning.  Which is easy now; but was harder when getting up at 7 meant getting up in the dark.  

There were days when I would wake up at 8am, stay in bed until 9am, then realise if I left for a run (which takes around an hour - 10am), then came back to have a shower (which takes 20mins - 10:20), then left to travel to my first meeting (which can take 30mins 10:50).  That means if anything goes wrong I can be late to an 11am appointment.  But also - if I have a 10am meeting I have to skip my run to get there on time.

Going to bed at a reasonable hour - I am still getting used to deciding not to work myself ragged.  I decided to accept that sleep is important, and trust to let my body sleep as long as it needs.  This sometimes also means that I can successfully get bonus time by keeping healthy sleep habits.  But also - if I go to sleep after midnight I might not get up until later, which means I compromise my "time" to go running by shoving it into other habits.

Deciding where to run - google maps, look for local parks, plan a route with the least roads and least traffic.  I did this once and then it was done.  It was also exciting to measure the route and be able to run further and further each day/week/month.

---

What's in your way?

If you are not doing something that you think is good and right (or healthy, or otherwise desireable) there are likely things in your way.  If you just found out about an action that is good, well and right and there is nothing stopping you from doing it; great.  You are lucky this time - Just.Do.It.

If you are one of the rest of us; who know that:

• daily exercise is good for you
• The right amount of sleep is good for you
• Eating certain foods are better than others
• certain social habits are better than others
• certain hobbies are more fulfilling (to our needs or goals) than others

And you have known this a while but still find yourself not taking the actions you want.  It's time to start asking what is in your way.  You might find it on someone else's list, but you are looking for the needle in the haystack.  

You are much better off doing this (System 2 exercise):

1. take 15 minutes with pencil and paper.
2. At the top write, "I want to ______________".
3. If you know that's true you might not need this step - if you are not sure - write out why it might be true or not true.
   
4. Write down the barriers that are in the way of you doing the thing.  think;
   • "can I do this right now?" (might not always be an action you can take while sitting around thinking about it - i.e. eating different foods)
   • "why can't I just do this at every opportunity that arises?"
   • "how do I increase the frequency of opportunities?"
5. Write out the things you are doing instead of that thing.
   These things are the barriers in your way as well.
6. For each point - consider what you are going to do about them.

---

Questions:

• What actions have you tried to take on?
• What barriers have you encountered in doing so?
• How did you solve that barrier?
• What are you struggling with taking on in the future?

---

Meta: this borrows from the Immunity to Change process, that can be best read about in the book, "right weight, right mind".  It also borrows from CFAR style techniques like resolve cycles (also known as focused grit), hamming questions, murphy-jitsu.

Meta: this took one hour to write.

Cross posted to lesswrong: http://lesswrong.com/lw/nuq

A person at our local LW meetup (not active at LW.com) tested various Soylent alternatives that are available in Europe and wrote a post about them:

______________________

Over the course of the last three months, I've sampled parts of the
european Soylent alternatives to determine which ones would work for me
longterm.

- The prices are always for the standard option and might differ for
e.g. High Protein versions.
- The prices are always for the amount where you get the cheapest
marginal price (usually around a one month supply, i.e. 90 meals)
- Changing your diet to Soylent alternatives quickly leads to increased
flatulence for some time - I'd recommend a slow adoption.
- You can pay for all of them with Bitcoin.
- The list is sorted by overall awesomeness.

So here's my list of reviews:

Joylent:

Taste: 7/10
Texture: 7/10
Price: 5eu / day
Vegan option: Yes
Overall awesomeness: 8/10

This one is probably the european standard for nutritionally complete
meal replacements.

The texture is nice, the taste is somewhat sweet, the flavors aren't
very intensive.
They have an ok amount of different flavors but I reduced my orders to
Mango (+some Chocolate).

They offer a morning version with caffeine and a sports version with
more calories/protein.

They also offer Twennybars (similar to a cereal bar but each offers 1/5
of your daily needs), which everyone who tasted them really liked.
They're nice for those lazy times where you just don't feel like pouring
the powder, adding water and shaking before you get your meal.
They do cost 10eu per day, though.

I also like the general style. Every interaction with them was friendly,
fun and uncomplicated.


Veetal:

Taste: 8/10
Texture: 7/10
Price: 8.70 / day
Vegan option: Yes
Overall awesomeness: 8/10

This seems to be the "natural" option, apparently they add all those
healthy ingredients.

The texture is nice, the taste is sweeter than most, but not very sweet.
They don't offer flavors but the "base taste" is fine, it also works
well with some cocoa powder.

It's my favorite breakfast now and I had it ~54 of the last 60 days.
Would have been first place if not for the relatively high price.


Mana:

Taste: 6/10
Texture: 7/10
Price: 6.57 / day
Vegan option: Only Vegan
Overall awesomeness: 7/10

Mana is one of the very few choices that don't taste sweet but salty.
Among all the ones I've tried, it tastes the most similar to a classic meal.
It has a somewhat oily aftertaste that was a bit unpleasent in the
beginning but is fine now that I got used to it.

They ship the oil in small bottles seperate from the rest which you pour
into your shaker with the powder. This adds about 100% more complexity
to preparing a meal.

The packages feel somewhat recycled/biodegradable which I don't like so
much but which isn't actually a problem.

It still made it to the list of meals I want to consume on a regular
basis because it tastes so different from the others (and probably has a
different nutritional profile?).


Nano:

Taste: 7/10
Texture: 7/10
Price: 1.33eu / meal
*I couldn't figure out whether they calculate with 3 or 5 meals per day
** Price is for an order of 666 meals. I guess 222 meals for 1.5eu /meal
is the more reasonable order
Vegan option: Only Vegan
Overall awesomeness: 7/10

Has a relatively sweet taste. Only comes in the standard vanilla-ish flavor.

They offer a Veggie hot meal which is the only one besides Mana that
doesn't taste sweet. It tastes very much like a vegetable soup but was a
bit too spicy for me. (It's also a bit more expensive)

Nano has a very future-y feel about it that I like. It comes in one meal
packages which I don't like too much but that's personal preference.


Queal:

Taste: 7/10
Texture: 6/10
Price: 6.5 / day
Vegan option: No
Overall awesomeness: 7/10

Is generally similar to Joylent (especially in flavor) but seems
strictly inferior (their flavors sound more fun - but don't actually
taste better).


Nutrilent:

Taste: 6/10
Texture: 7/10
Price: 5 / day
Vegan option: No
Overall awesomeness: 6/10

Taste and flavor are also similar to Joylent but it tastes a little
worse. It comes in one meal packages which I don't fancy.


Jake:

Taste: 6/10
Texture: 7/10
Price: 7.46 / day
Vegan option: Only Vegan
Overall awesomeness: 6/10

Has a silky taste/texture (I didn't even know that was a thing before I
tried it). Only has one flavor (vanilla) which is okayish.
Also offers a light and sports option.


Huel:

Taste: 1/10
Texture: 6/10
Price: 6.70 / day
Vegan option: Only Vegan
Overall awesomeness: 4/10

The taste was unanimously rated as awful by every single person to whom
I gave it for trying. The Vanilla flavored version was a bit less awful
then the unflavored version but still...
The worst packaging - it's in huge bags that make it hard to pour and
are generally inconvenient to handle.

Apart from that, it's ok, I guess?


Ambronite:

Taste: ?
Texture: ?
Price: 30 / day
Vegan option: Only Vegan
Overall awesomeness: ?

Price was prohibitive for testing - they advertise it as being very
healthy and natural and stuff.


Fruiticio:

Taste: ?
Texture: ?
Price: 5.76 / day
Vegan option: No
Overall awesomeness: ?

They offer a variety for women and one for men. I didn't see any way for
me to find out which of those I was supposed to order. I had to give up
the ordering process at that point. (I guess you'd have to ask your
doctor which one is for you?)



Conclusion:
Meal replacements are awesome, especially when you don't have much time
to make or eat a "proper" meal.
I generally don't feel full after drinking them but also stop being hungry.
I assume they're healthier than the average European diet.
The texture and flavor do get a bit dull after a while if I only use
meal replacements.

On my usual day I eat one serving of Joylent, Veetal and Mana at the
moment (and have one or two "non-replaced" meals).

 

I posted before about an open source decision making web site I am working on called WikiLogic. The site has a 2 minute explanatory animation if you are interested. I wont repeat myself but the tl;dr is that it will follow the Wikipedia model of allowing everyone to collaborate on a giant connected database of arguments where previously established claims can be used as supporting evidence for new claims.

The raw deduction element of it works fine and would be great in a perfect world where such a thing as absolute truths existed, however in reality we normally have to deal with claims that are just the most probable. My program allows opposing claims to be connected and then evidence to be gathered for each. The evidence will create a probability of it being correct and which ever is highest, gets marked as best answer. Principles such as Occams Razor are applied automatically as long list of claims used as evidence will be less likely as each claim will have its own likelihood which will dilute its strength.

However, my only qualification in this area is my passion and I am hitting a wall with some basic questions. I am not sure if this is the correct place to get help with these. If not, please direct me somewhere else and I will remove the post.

 

The arbitrarily chosen example claim I am working with is whether “Alexander the Great existed”. This has the useful properties of 1: an expected outcome (that he existed - although, perhaps my problem is that this is not the case!) and 2: it relies heavily on probability as there is little solid evidence.

One popular claim is that coins were minted with his face on them. I want to use Bayes to find how likely a face appearing on a coin is for someone who existed. As I understand it, there should be 4 combinations:

1. Existed; Had a coin minted
2. Existed; Did not have a coin minted
3. No Existed; Had a coin minted
4. No Existed; Did not have a coin minted

 

The first issue is that there are infinite people who never existed and did not have a coin made. If I narrow it to historic figures who turned out not to exist and did not have a coin made it becomes possible but also becomes subjective as to whether someone actually thought they existed. For example, did people believe the Minotaur existed?

Perhaps I should choose another filter instead of historic figure, like humans that existed. But picking and choosing the category is again so subjective. Someone may also argue that woman inequality back then was so great that the data should only look at men, as a woman’s chance of being portrayed on a coin was skewed in a way that isn’t applicable to men.

I hope i have successfully communicated the problem i am grappling with and what i want to use it for. If not, please ask for clarifications. A friend in academia suggested that this touches on a problem with Bayes priors that has not been settled. If that is the case, is there any suggested resources for a novice with limited free time, to start to explore the issue? References to books or other online resources or even somewhere else I should be posting this kind of question would all be gratefully received. Not to mention a direct answer in the comments!

Original post: http://bearlamp.com.au/filter-on-the-way-in-filter-on-the-way-out/

---

I'd like to quote tact filters by Jeff Bigler:

All people have a "tact filter", which applies tact in one direction to everything that passes through it. Most "normal people" have the tact filter positioned to apply tact in the outgoing direction. Thus whatever normal people say gets the appropriate amount of tact applied to it before they say it. This is because when they were growing up, their parents continually drilled into their heads statements like, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!"

"Nerds," on the other hand, have their tact filter positioned to apply tact in the incoming direction. Thus, whatever anyone says to them gets the appropriate amount of tact added when they hear it. This is because when nerds were growing up, they continually got picked on, and their parents continually drilled into their heads statements like, "They're just saying those mean things because they're jealous. They don't really mean it."

When normal people talk to each other, both people usually apply the appropriate amount of tact to everything they say, and no one's feelings get hurt. When nerds talk to each other, both people usually apply the appropriate amount of tact to everything they hear, and no one's feelings get hurt. However, when normal people talk to nerds, the nerds often get frustrated because the normal people seem to be dodging the real issues and not saying what they really mean. Worse yet, when nerds talk to normal people, the normal people's feelings often get hurt because the nerds don't apply tact, assuming the normal person will take their blunt statements and apply whatever tact is necessary.

So, nerds need to understand that normal people have to apply tact to everything they say; they become really uncomfortable if they can't do this. Normal people need to understand that despite the fact that nerds are usually tactless, things they say are almost never meant personally and shouldn't be taken that way. Both types of people need to be extra patient when dealing with someone whose tact filter is backwards relative to their own.

Later edit for clarification: I don't like the Nerd|Normal dichotomy because those words have various histories and baggage associated with them, so I renamed them (Stater, listener, Launch filter, Landing filter).  "Normal" is pretty unhelpful when trying to convey a clear decision about what's good or bad.

---

Okay; so Tact filters.  But what should we really do?  What's better?  Jeff's Nerd or Normal?  And more importantly - In future ambiguous cases - what should we do?

Moving parts to this system

There are a few moving parts to tact, I am going to lay them out:

• Stater - the person stating something
• Statement - the thing being said
• Listener - the person hearing it, or the person who it is intended to be directed to.
• Tact filter - the filter that turns the Statement into a clean one.
• Launch responsibility - the Stater's responsibility to launch the statement in certain ways. (Jeff's normal)
• Landing responsibility - The listener's responsibility to receive the statement in certain ways. (Jeff's nerd)

In a chart it looks like this:

Who is responsible?

In Landing responsible culture, you are responsible for the incoming tact.

But this isn't great because it labels anyone you are talking to as "potential jerks".

In Launch responsible culture:

The responsibility to be tactful prepares the statement for a sensitive person.  Which isn't great either.  Tact takes time, takes energy and effort, what if no one ever needed to be tactful?  Everything would also be fast.

The wild

So this is real life now.  You don't really know if the other person is tactful or sensitive or a jerk or just normal...  The best possible plan for unknowns: 

It's not rocket science.  Said again:

1. actively be less offensive when you say things that might be taken offensively
2. actively be less offended when you hear things that sound offensive

Q: But it's not my responsibility because I live in (Launch | Listener) responsibility land.

A: yes it is!  No you don't!  You live on earth.  In the real world, where you sometimes encounter people living in the other land.  Which is a fact.  You can choose to piss them off when you meet them but you should know that's a choice and up to you.  And now that you know this; the responsibility is on you to make the better choice.

---

Compounding factors

Even this model leaves out all the further compounding factors.  

1. What if the Stater thinks a statement is tactful but that same statement is taken as non-tactful by the listener?  
2. What if the stater is used to their statements being taken as tactful on every day except today?  
3. What if the particular pair of stater-listener has an existing negative relationship?

I don't know.  Err on the side of caution.

---

Questions:

• What other communication habits have a filter?  Does it pay to err on the side of caution?  
• Aside from the fallacy of the middle, can this become a rule?

---

Another solution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime

---

Meta: this post was inspired by Sam's post on a similar topic.

Meta: this took 2 hours to think about, write and draw out what I meant.

From part 1: http://bearlamp.com.au/the-problem-tm-analyse-a-conversation/
part 1 on lesswrong: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/nsn/

(this) part: http://bearlamp.com.au/the-problem-analyse-a-conversation-part-2/

I had a chat with a person who admitted to having many problems themselves.  I offered my services as a problem solving amateur, willing to try to get to the bottom of this.  Presented is the conversation (With details changed for privacy).

I had my first shot at analysing the person's problems and drilling down to the bottom.  I am interested in what other people have to say is the problem.  Here we study the meta-strategy of how to solve the problem, which I find much more interesting than the object level analysis of the problem and how to solve it.

I don't think I got to the bottom of the problem, and I don't think I conducted myself in a top-notch capacity but needless to say I wonder if you have any comments about what IS TheProblem(tm), how did you come to that conclusion and what can be done about it (for the benefit of this person and anyone with a similar problem).

---

What is actually the problem?  I have a theory, but I also wanted to publish this without declaring my answer.  I will share my ideas in a few weeks but I want to know what you think and how you came to that answer.

---

This is a new style of post so I expected some responses along the lines of:

I considered downvoting. I opted instead to ignore after reading the preamble. - buybuydandavis

That's fine.  It was literally a chat log.  Not for everyone.

I also got some interesting and relevant responses.  There are several and they overlap so I decided it's best to answer with another post.

---

Many people narrowed down to a few particularly alarming examples:

• The most alarming part of that conversation for me was "A few weeks ago I punched a housemate in the face ten times, breaking her nose;" - Strangeattractor
• Is it really the most alarming part? I would think suicide ideation more so. - Romashka
• Treatment for mental illness (and possibly organic brain trauma) seems priority #1 here... -CronoDAS
• Zebra was extremely bad at imagining good outcomes in a way which led to him taking action-- in other words, probably depression. - NancyLebovitz 

And then this:

There are lots of problems. If I had to pick only one, it would be that you seem to think there is a single, simple problem that can be identified from this transcript. - Dagon

It sounds a bit as if you are implicitly proposing a principle like "there is always a single underlying problem, if you can only find it" - gjm

---

To gjm first:

I present "The Problem (TM)" because I suspect in this case there is an underlying problem.  Not always.  Often when problem solving we try to figure out what is the lowest hanging fruit, or what one thing can be changed first.

There was a scene in Doctor Who - The ends of time Part 2 where the doctor is trapped in space on a spaceship that doesn't work.  Instead of giving up he just (knowing what he is doing) starts fiddling with the heating.  Other characters insist that everything is hopeless and lo and behold; as he fixes the heating; that fixes the engine and the computers and everything whirs back to life and we continue to the next epic fight scene!

Now, generalising from one fictional example.  As rationalists we wish that there really was one thing that you could fix, which would cause the fixing of the next thing and a chain of events that fix everything.  When we look at the accelerating factors, we wish this is how it happens:

We'd be dreaming to think that such a thing can actually happen.  After 41 days we are at 1.5x where we started.  After 70 days 2x, and 111, 3x.  Which is just nuts.  What if I told you that in a month of nudging 1% you'd be nearly 1.5x from where you are.  Not likely, not going to happen.

1	1.01	51	1.6610781401
2	1.0201	52	1.6776889215
3	1.030301	53	1.6944658107
4	1.04060401	54	1.7114104688
5	1.0510100501	55	1.7285245735
6	1.0615201506	56	1.7458098192
7	1.0721353521	57	1.7632679174
8	1.0828567056	58	1.7809005966
9	1.0936852727	59	1.7987096025
10	1.1046221254	60	1.8166966986
11	1.1156683467	61	1.8348636655
12	1.1268250301	62	1.8532123022
13	1.1380932804	63	1.8717444252
14	1.1494742132	64	1.8904618695
15	1.1609689554	65	1.9093664882
16	1.1725786449	66	1.9284601531
17	1.1843044314	67	1.9477447546
18	1.1961474757	68	1.9672222021
19	1.2081089504	69	1.9868944242
20	1.2201900399	70	2.0067633684
21	1.2323919403	71	2.0268310021
22	1.2447158598	72	2.0470993121
23	1.2571630183	73	2.0675703052
24	1.2697346485	74	2.0882460083
25	1.282431995	75	2.1091284684
26	1.295256315	76	2.130219753
27	1.3082088781	77	2.1515219506
28	1.3212909669	78	2.1730371701
29	1.3345038766	79	2.1947675418
30	1.3478489153	80	2.2167152172
31	1.3613274045	81	2.2388823694
32	1.3749406785	82	2.2612711931
33	1.3886900853	83	2.283883905
34	1.4025769862	84	2.306722744
35	1.416602756	85	2.3297899715
36	1.4307687836	86	2.3530878712
37	1.4450764714	87	2.3766187499
38	1.4595272361	88	2.4003849374
39	1.4741225085	89	2.4243887868
40	1.4888637336	90	2.4486326746
41	1.5037523709	91	2.4731190014
42	1.5187898946	92	2.4978501914
43	1.5339777936	93	2.5228286933
44	1.5493175715	94	2.5480569803
45	1.5648107472	95	2.5735375501
46	1.5804588547	96	2.5992729256
47	1.5962634432	97	2.6252656548
48	1.6122260777	98	2.6515183114
49	1.6283483385	99	2.6780334945
50	1.6446318218	100	2.7048138294

Nonetheless we pursue.  It might be important too, to look for the problem at the bottom, otherwise we might find ourselves bikeshedding about the trivial problems.

This week while making the emergency room project, I spent some time looking at other data.  Specifically the (Australian) National Drug Strategy Household Survey data.  Where the first question on the survey was; "When people talk about “a drug problem”, which is the first drug you think of?".  What kind of information is that likely to yield?  Is it going to return the drug which is the biggest problem in the country?  Or maybe it's going to yield whatever the media feels makes a good story, (say ICE because it's dangerous) (weed because it's controvertial) (or alcohol because it's the most common)?  Or is it going to yield the one with the most personally damaging reputation (tobacco > alcohol)?

In reality, is the government going to take action on what people think is the biggest problem drug?  Or should the government instead take action on the drug actually killing people?  Are we bikeshedding on this issue?

What actually is the biggest problem, it's a relevant question, certainly not every time.  but sometimes it's worth digging into.

---

To Strangeattractor, Romashka, CronoDAS, NancyLebovitz:

You are not wrong.  The violence, mental health, potential head wound, depression, inability to leave the house, lack of friends, weight problems, exercise problems. Are all very very important problems to tackle.  And I will come back to this.

---

Some analysis:

I started with simple background questions.  History, etc.  knowing that anything being brought up is probably being brought up because it has special relevance to the topic.  It's almost like a job interview, when they ask you for your top 10 characteristics, they don't expect you to tell them about how you can fry a perfect egg (if that's not relevant to the task at hand).  There is a need to make certain assumptions about the truth and about the validity of the information.

I was previously very depressed, and then recovered for a few years.

Definitely relevant, sets the scene.  I asked, "So you are currently feeling depressed"

Yes. Possibly as a symptom of bipolar disorder (I’ve recently started having manic episodes), or possibly not–I’ve never been diagnosed with that, and until recently had never had issues with mania.

A while back I tried reading the DSM.  While it really doesn't tell you much about reality it is one instance of a Map of the world, Just like legislation, instruction manuals, guide books, Guides to how a project was done (this is an example of a map of how my process works), and more.  The interesting thing about what the DSM has to say about bipolar diagnosis is that there is a requirement for mania in both the upwards and downwards directions, often affecting sleep, and giving people feelings of godliness or invincibility.

So who cares.  Well; on the one hand; using this knowledge here to ask about sleep is a signal that I at least know a little bit of what is being talked about.  On the other hand I think I got lucky about whether sleep was relevant. (and on the third hand - sleep is a very common problem for people generally and worth asking about.)

I guess immediately I feel quite isolated, very stressed, and don’t know how to proceed forward.

The idea of "feeling stressed" is a complicated one.  On some level, you have an understanding of what "I feel stressed" means.  But on another level - if you spend enough time around different diversely stressed people.  You get the feeling that there is some kind of miscommunication going on.

Kind of like this one here.  It's a map and territory problem.  One person's map of stress is not the same as another person's map of stress.

---

ELiot: Is there a specific stress?

I guess; loneliness, numerous tensions with my girlfriend, some financial issues (to a large extent a symptom of the recent mania), extreme dissatisfaction with myself and especially my own appearance, frustrations with daily life, and a general dissatisfaction with the world.

So there's a list.  But the problem I find with vague lists is it's easy to see there's a problem here but harder to address any part and make a difference.  I personally have list making habits.  Something I will one day make a post about.   Which is where this comes from:

I am going to write the list out

1. Loneliness
2. Girlfriend tension
3. Financial issues
4. Self + appearance
5. Daily life
6. Dissatisfied with the world

Which grew a bit by the end of the conversation.

---

ChristianKl Rightly criticised me for saying this:  

ELiot
Would you like to pick a specific one from the list to talk about?

I can pick one if you like

(Why do you offer to pick the specific issue? Agency is important for getting out of depression.) Unfortunately I stripped out time-stamps which would explain why I offered to pick one.  There are three parts to this problem.

1. Not picking one would likely lead to more complaining about the issues without solving anything.  If Z was unmotivated enough to be unable to pick one (a worse failure mode) then picking any would be better than nothing.
2. Leading with any of them would be fine, because I planned to cover a few of them and the conversation would naturally tend to flow onto the bigger problems anyway (as it did)
3. If one cannot decide between them, they are probably all equally relevant-challenging-problematic and equal gains would be made on any of them from a bit of effort.

As it was - it was relatively easy for Z to pick one.  I generally wouldn't pick one - even if I suggested that I would.  and well done ChristianKl for spotting this.

---

Is that bad?

I often find myself not eating until nighttime, or sometimes not eating at all, due to wanting to avoid those stressors.

An important question - is that a bad thing?  I repeat this whenever I see an unjustified badness.  In the sense that it should be up to the individual to decide what is or is not bad.  In theory; not eating is a bad thing.  Possibly to lead to mood swings from hunger or sugar levels, and who-knows what else.  But, that's what I think; not what Z had to say about why it's bad. 

---

Is this correct: you feel stressed about not wanting to leave to go buy food. Then you feel stressed about not buying food as well.

And I guess I’m kind of lonely.

later

When I go out sometimes it’s ok, and sometimes I realise the people around me are crap and I am too and I get even sadder.

later still

And really I don’t want to be staying at home, as that’s also very stressful.

later still.

There’s nothing much I can identify that I really want to do.

and then:

Also I’m frequently very exhausted, and it’s often hard to work up the energy to do those things.

and on:

Well, I really dislike being alone, but I don’t much like most people.

(I think that's enough for now)

So Z is lonely, but doesn't want to go out because sometimes it's crap, but doesn't want to be staying home, but doesn't have anything they really want to do, but is also very exhausted and doesn't have the energy to do things, but really dislikes being alone....

If we looked at the loneliness it wouldn't really improve the state of The problem because the loneliness isn't the big deal.  If we looked at the going out problem, that wouldn't be it, because Z wants to go out, but also doesn't like staying home, but also if we solved the going out problem that wouldn't do it because they don't really have anything they want to do, but if we found something they want to do that wouldn't fix it because they don't have the energy to do that thing.  So what if we solve the energy problem?  

In the hope that once we solve the desire to go out they will have the energy, and they won't need to be stuck at home and they won't feel alone and they can go on to live a happy and prosperous life.  No.  That's not it.  Once we dig to the bottom of the energy problem we get to an absence problem:

I kind of zone out, frequently. People find that scary.

And down the rabbit hole we go.

I want to be clear that each of these problems are valid problems, each are the most important problem and each need to be solved to dig Z out of the hole.  I want to not disparage the ongoing discussion and identification of problems until we can really get to that root of all things; fix the heating and whirr the spaceship into action!

That's not how problems work.  Or at least - not how this one works.  At the bottom of every problem is another problem (reminds me of a poem - There's a hole in my bucket - this is not a coincidence).  We also have a term for getting side tracked from the real work at hand - Yak shaving.  

But wait!  What is the real problem we should be working on?  If all this talk is just yak shaving our way down the river - how do we know what to actually work on?

---

The problem

In this case - certainly not repeatable.  I can't say how often it happens but I wanted to identify this very clear problem as it sneakily tries to evade capture.  This problem is exactly the process of solving the problem has become part of the problem.  We can't solve the loneliness without first solving the home problem, but first - having nothing to do, but first energy, but first absence feelings.  It's a problem spiral.

What next?

Let's say you or a friend has a problem spiral.  You start talking about it and you spiral downwards, every problem being worse than the one before until you feel absolutely terrible, develop an ugh field and resolve to do nothing at all.  (probably a familiar pattern)

You get in this pattern and nothing gets solved.  To break out of this pattern; I propose a known solution (the scientific method).  Pick one of the problems, set a 5 minute timer (or a 20minute pomodoro, or a whole day to work on it).  Your task is to improve the state of this problem, conduct tests, observe what happens.  It's the loneliness problem, and it sucks because you don't want to leave the house.  But that's okay.  Keep trying.  Don't try to solve the house-leaving problem right now, just work on the loneliness.  Try talking to people about it, try therapists, try leave the house, try online forums, try anything and everything you can think of.  Take notes.

Notes are evidence, evidence is how we make progress.

Your task, should you choose to accept it - is to focus on making some kind of progress on any one of the many problems.  Then when you are sick of this one, or tired, or done, or successful, pick the next one.  repeat, fail, repeat, succeed, repeat.  Iterate.

I propose the 3 part solution to this one meta-problem is:

1. pick something to work on
2. work on it
3. iterate

It's unlikely that you solve any one problem the first time around.  If you did - take your winnings!  Walk away!  On to the next one.  But if the situation is (as can be expected) a complicated problem - one that you already couldn't just solve - which led to the stacking up of layer upon layer of problems.  It's going to take some time.

Keep at it.  Good luck.

---

Credit goes to  Dagon - There are lots of problems. If I had to pick only one, it would be that you seem to think there is a single, simple problem that can be identified from this transcript.

Well done.

---

Meta: this took two days to write, and the better part of 3+ hours.

If you are interested in a conversation, send me a message.  No guarantees we can solve your problems, but maybe we can try.

This has been a new style of post, not for all - thanks for reading.

Originally published here: http://bearlamp.com.au/the-problem-tm-analyse-a-conversation/
Part 2: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/nt8/the_problem_tm_part_2/
Part 2: http://bearlamp.com.au/the-problem-analyse-a-conversation-part-2/

I had a chat with a person who admitted to having many problems themselves.  I offered my services as a problem solving amateur, willing to try to get to the bottom of this.  Presented is the conversation (With details changed for privacy).

I had my first shot at analysing the person's problems and drilling down to the bottom.  I am interested in what other people have to say is the problem.  Here we study the meta-strategy of how to solve the problem, which I find much more interesting than the object level analysis of the problem and how to solve it.

I don't think I got to the bottom of the problem, and I don't think I conducted myself in a top-notch capacity but needless to say I wonder if you have any comments about what IS TheProblem(tm), how did you come to that conclusion and what can be done about it (for the benefit of this person and anyone with a similar problem).

---

Zebra
Hey

ELiot
Where would you like to start?
Do you want to share about your history?

Zebra
I was previously very depressed, and then recovered for a few years. While I'm glad I was able to have those couple years, I don't think they were worth suffering through the depression, and I didn't at the time, when I didn't think it would return.

Zebra
(Though it hasn't returned as bad as it was.)

ELiot
So you are currently feeling depressed

Zebra
Yes. Possibly as a symptom of bipolar disorder (I've recently started having manic episodes), or possibly not--I've never been diagnosed with that, and until recently had never had issues with mania.

ELiot
How much are you sleeping? One Indication of bipolar swings is total sleep

Zebra
The last couple days I've slept okay, but when I had more manic symptoms sleep was very intermittent. A few weeks ago I punched a housemate in the face ten times, breaking her nose; at that point, I'd not slept in two days.

ELiot
Sounds like a bad event.

Zebra
I guess immediately I feel quite isolated, very stressed, and don't know how to proceed forward.

ELiot
Is there a specific stress?

Zebra
I guess; loneliness, numerous tensions with my girlfriend, some financial issues (to a large extent a symptom of the recent mania), extreme dissatisfaction with myself and especially my own appearance, frustrations with daily life, and a general dissatisfaction with the world.

ELiot
Manic up should correlate with little sleep, manic down with extra sleep. Manic up should also come with a variation on _feeling invincible_

Which of the things in that list do you think can't change?

Zebra
I suppose they're all changeable if you apply enough effort, but that seems like a lot of work, and frankly I've never seen much in the world that seems worth it.

As I said, I've gotten better, to some extent, previously.

Even after I had already gotten better and I no longer wanted to suicide, I wished I had previously, because even though life then was fine, it just wasn't worth what had gone before.

I don't feel invincible really.

ELiot
When in manic up states?

Zebra
When in manic states I still don't feel invincible.

ELiot
If you could remove the problems listed do you think you would want to live?

Zebra
All of them? Yes, if I could do some magically, or at a reasonable cost.

ELiot
I would say that is a good thing. But it depends on your goals.

I can offer ideas about working with those problems to make them better, but not if you don't want that.

Zebra
Well those would be good.

ELiot
Would you like to pick a specific one from the list to talk about?

I can pick one if you like

Zebra
Uhm, you can pick. I'm not sure which one would be most imminently solvable.

ELiot
I am going to write the list out

1. Loneliness
2. Girlfriend tension
3. Financial issues
4. Self + appearance
5. Daily life
6. Dissatisfied with the world

Zebra
Yep, that's most of it.

ELiot
What burdens do you currently have on your life? I. E. Supporting a child, have to show up at work each day. Etc.

Thinking about number 5 - Regular commitments

Zebra
Not a whole lot really. I've no job or school (family money, though not a large amount). My girlfriend is financially dependent on me at this point, though she's supposed to be starting a job this month.

To be honest even going downstairs to buy food, or really even to talk to a delivery person on the phone, feels like a huge burden.

ELiot
So in terms of pressure on your daily life?

Zebra
I often find myself not eating until nighttime, or sometimes not eating at all, due to wanting to avoid those stressors.

ELiot
Is that bad?

Zebra
Well, yeah. It feels very negative and causes me stress and I really don't feel life has much to offer in return for even minor inconveniences.

ELiot
is there a reason that not eating is a bad thing to do for you?

Zebra
I don't see life as particularly positive, really, and just want it to be over with so I don't have to bother with this crap every day. On the other hand, actually going about killing yourself is fucking scary.

So I guess I'm trying to find some way out of that conclusion so I won't have to face the immediately distasteful action of actually offing myself, even though it's probably preferable to suffering through a lifetime of even minor annoyances.

ELiot
Is this correct: you feel stressed about not wanting to leave to go buy food. Then you feel stressed about not buying food as well.

Zebra
Yes.

And I guess I'm kind of lonely, and even minor inconveniences, when they have no positive aspects in between, eventually get you really, really down.

I feel like what I do most days is just wait, be sad and lonely, be slightly annoyed, and wait and cry and be lonely more.

When I go out sometimes it's ok, and sometimes I realise the people around me are crap and I am too and I get even sadder.

ELiot
Here is how I see this very limited problem. Without looking at other things just yet.

When making the first choice, either stay home and not buy food or leave and buy food you choose the less stress option. To stay home. I see that as a win. You successfully made the right choice to avoid the immediate stress. Then later you decide that going out is more important/useful/(Less stress) than staying home and not having food. Seems like you also win by carrying out the choice to leave and get food have less stress.

You appear to be stressing yourself out over two reasonable choices. I would suggest that you have done well to make both the choice of staying home and later the choice to leave for food.

Zebra
The stress of not going is physiological rather than psychological, so I don't think looking at that differently can really fix it.

And really I don't want to be staying at home, as that's also very stressful.

I'm just not sure what else to do...

ELiot
In terms of where to go? Or in terms of how to spend your time?

Zebra
Both

There's nothing much I can identify that I really want to do.

ELiot
I can suggest options down those paths

Zebra
ok.

ELiot
I don't know where you are gegraphically, but if we consider specifically where to go and what to do near where you are;

I would look at; google, "things to do in *city*" as well as looking at meetups in city. As well as looking for parks, museums, monuments, walks, local history, pretty geography, public spaces I. E. Libraries, evening classes, sports to play

Zebra
I'm in Hong Kong.

I go to meetups sometimes.

ELiot
Generally the idea of exploration of the place

Also temples, religious places, hikes

Zebra
As for meetups, sometimes you meet interesting people, but often it's stressful dealing with idiots. And most people are idiots.

ELiot
You are mostly allowed to do what you like with your time. In terms of going places and later going home to sleep etc.

A large fraction of people are idiots

Zebra
And the more interesting people are often difficult to connect with more than superficially.

ELiot
"Allowed to" is a funny idea. No one needs to give you permission to do what you like.

Going to add 7. Social strategy

Zebra
True. I just don't feel like I _like_ much.

Also I'm frequently very exhausted, and it's often hard to work up the energy to do those things.

ELiot
Do you think you have tried to find many things you like or do you think the bottle neck lies before that? In trying to find them?

If you do nothing (because you are tired) is that a problem?

Zebra
Yeah, doing nothing all the time sucks. If I stay home I feel like I'm in jail...

but if I go out I feel like I've been sent as a labourer to Australia.

ELiot
At some point the desire to stay home because you are tired should weigh up against the desire to go out and feel like you are not in jail. That is a fine time to leave, feeling bad about both staying at home and leaving the house sounds like a recipe for displeasure either way... Does that make sense?

Zebra
Well it is, obviously, which is why I feel like I'm in a no-win situation, and want to die.

(or at least part of it)

I mean, occasionally there are meetups and stuff which I go to, and those are ok, but really I have so much free time and since my mental health issues started I've alienated almost everyone I knew.

And that just increases the stress and makes it difficult to make new friends.

ELiot
I would be going down the path of tracing that feeling of bad to its source because it's not really about staying or going it's about that bad pressure that appears self imposed.

Do you feel like you _should be doing_ things?

I.e. Going out

Zebra
Well, I really dislike being alone, but I don't much like most people.

I think that's what it boils down to.

And yes, I get that that might not be a healthy state to be in, but again, that I'm not in a healthy state has already been established.

ELiot
Do you know what part or kind of social interaction you like? When you say "dislike alone" what is "not alone"

Zebra
Well, I like talking with friends and drinking and doing stuff, but often it's difficult to make new friends.

ELiot
Conversation with new people is "not alone"

And you sometimes feel alone when you hang around old friends

Zebra
Yes, that's true.

ELiot
Can you financially afford to go drinking and doing stuff?

Zebra
I guess new people I meet are often very disappointing, and more than that, even when they aren't, I myself have a lot of recently developed mental issues it takes a lot of effort to control.

I kind of zone out, frequently. People find that scary.

ELiot
What kind of new people would you like to meet?

Zebra
Uhm, I dunno. It's hard to specify really.

ELiot
Is your zoning out actually absence or is it more like daydreaming?

Zebra
Absence

Or sometimes I just sort of feel sad.

But usually no internal thoughts associated.

I can sort of afford to go drinking and stuff.

ELiot
Do you recall things that happen while you are absent?

Zebra
Mostly not. I can sort of remember it happening but super vague.

ELiot
Do you feel like you are an automa - following a path you were on, and then you zone back in?

Zebra
It's not like in the middle of a sentence, but people notice that I look dead and then sometimes I don't respond until they call me a couple times, though sometimes I can respond immediately.

More like my energy's just gone, I guess.

Sometimes I'll lose track of the conversation, even when I myself am speaking.

That's not as common recently, though.

ELiot
I was going to say I suspect an absent seizure. It came up in the lw open thread this week. Let me get you a link

Zebra
My mother claims I told her I was hospitalised for a head injury around the time my mental health problems started worsening.

I can't remember the incident, though, and she has not much in the way of specific details.

ELiot
http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/niv/open_thread_apr_18_apr_24_2016/d8ow

If you have something like that I am sure it makes everything worse

Zebra
I had depression before that, but as I said, it had mostly gotten better. On the other hand, there were a lot of issues in my life around the same time which may have led to the recurrence of symptoms as well.

ELiot
Okay, what kind of person would you like to meet?

Zebra
Hmm, previously I wanted to see a neurologist because my symptoms were much worse, but they've lessened now.

ELiot
There is medication to reduce seizures to nearly nothing

Which might help

Zebra
Well, an intelligent person, but those are rare; or someone who's fun, but finding one who's willing to put up with my lethargy and depression is hard; or someone who's nice and not a complete idiot.

ELiot
It also might help to keep a diary of what you do each day to try to keep track of how often they happen

Zebra
Maybe. I'm not at all certain I'm having seizures, though.

I have pretty bad memory, too.

ELiot
Where might you find intelligent people?

A brain scan would tell you if you are or are not having seizures

Zebra
I have no idea. I guess some of the intellectually-focused meetup groups have some, but not all that many.

Yeah, I've been meaning to go to a neurologist, but I frequently fail to get around to stuff.

ELiot
I would suggest university campus as a viable place

To find smart ones

Zebra
Maybe, but I'm not in university and probably don't have the effort to enter.

Also, somewhat smart, but not very smart, people really annoy me.

Universities have a lot of those.

ELiot
Campuses here are just places you can walk into, not sure what it's like there

If you want to get out of the house and see something, universities are a nice place to visit

Zebra
Hmm, I guess I could try.

Many offer classes to the public very cheaply.

ELiot
You can probably also work out how to sneak into a lecture anyway - they usually don't check the roll

Any topic of study fancy your interest? To sneak into a lecture about

Zebra
Hmm, not sure. Linguistics or history might be fun.

CS would probably just be a recap of basic material.

ELiot
You can usually find course details online and work out where the lectures are and just kinda walk in and sit down - For a bit of fun

Zebra
How does that translate to meeting people though?

(If it's not obvious, I've never been to uni.)

ELiot
Chat to people if you want to. Lectures have breaks, uni tries to encourage social groups too usually, barbecues and stuff

If you make yourself look approachable and friendly people will talk to you. It's how I avoid approaching others. I wear funny hats and strangers talk to me

Zebra
Really? Haha, what sort of hats?

ELiot
Pirate hat, top hats, Stetson,

I have about 50 hats

Different ones all the time

That's on the topic of appearance tho

Zebra
I don't look very approachable now :( Since I became ill again my personal health and hygeine have done very poorly.

ELiot
Do you like being hygienic? Indifferent?

Zebra
Well, I like being hygenic, but getting to that state is difficult.

Also, I've probably gained 40kg since then, so even if I was it's probably all for naught.

ELiot
What contributes to that state? For me it's having a shower and brushing my teeth.

Maybe deodorant too. And clean clothes

Zebra
Well, those things.

Now I've got so fat it's hard to buy clothes :-/

ELiot
I would say you can work on that

Both the fat and the clothes

If you want to

Exercise would help you, leaving the house to go for a walk would help you, you don't need anywhere to go other than around a block or something

Do you track your weight?

Zebra
Yes, but it's very difficult.

ELiot
Is it still climbing or staying where it is?

Zebra
I've tried some stuff. Fasting, methamphetamine, etc., but I was never able to really reduce it.

ELiot
Difficult to track? To walk? To exercise? To buy clothes?

Weight loss is difficult, Yes

Zebra
I just don't have the energy to excercise. Even when I was taking methamphetamine I didn't have the energy for it.

ELiot
Would you consider paying for a service that helped you lose weight?

Zebra
Right now I think it's not climbing, but I didn't buy a new scale when my last one broke.

Yes, if I thought it had reasonable chance of being effective.

ELiot
An option would be to look at what is available

Near to where you live

Zebra
I don't think there are any drugs that work as well for weighy loss as meth, though, and that was not effective enough.

I don't know what else such a service could provide really.

I mean, I _know_ you need to excercise and eat healthy, but I just haven't been able to do it.

ELiot
Commitment, a gym, a trainer setting a program

There are greater experts in the field of weight loss than I

Zebra
Honestly, I've tried so much, I do not realistically think I would continue to follow through with that.

ELiot
Okay

Zebra
Other than the very deepest depths of depression (which I still haven't fallen to this time around), I've never experienced anything as unpleasant as excercise.

ELiot
I can offer ideas about weight loss and exercise but maybe another time.

What types of exercise?

Zebra
I suppose there are some illnesses which might do better than meth, but trying to induce those makes me feel very squeamish.

Pretty much anything.

It'a just so hot and icky and tiring.

ELiot
Oh! Yes, a problem with your geography

Other geographies are not as hot and sticky. Even that has solutions. My exercise is walking, running, swimming, unicycle, circus skills, rock climbing, ice skating, laser tag, and trampoline, I also did pole dance for a while. Also I would kayak and hike more if I had more opportunities...

Zebra
True. I had some fun doing outdoor type stuff in the Southwestern US.

Moving has its own host of problems, though.

ELiot
Other sports I have done include table tennis, actual tennis, archery...

Zebra
The primary one being that I don't know anyone anywhere else.

ELiot
I don't imagine moving will solve all your problems

Zebra
Except my mother in Florida, USA.

ELiot
Yes I was going to say, it would certainly make loneliness harder

Especially when you don't currently know how to make new friends very well

You can exercise at night, find an indoor pool to swim in maybe.

Zebra
Yes. I did the moving thing once, and it was probably good at the time, but I had fairly exceptional circumstances then which I don't have now.

There's a pretty nice pool in my condo, but I get tired. Swimming is exhausting.

And very self-conscious doing excercise around others.

ELiot
Yes.

Zebra
That's probably equally as serious an issue as the exhaustion.

ELiot
Night time for self conscious

Take a friend or girlfriend?

Moral support?

Zebra
Makes me more self conscious :(

ELiot
You need support network not criticism

Do you trust these people?

Do you think you could track how far you swim and try to increase laps or so?

The idea being to measure progress and feel like you are going somewhere

Zebra
I don't think I've ever actually trusted anyone, even as a child.

ELiot
That is a different problem

Zebra
Yeah. I have a lot of problems. :(

ELiot
That is okay for a place to be

Better to know than not know.

To be more specific you have a lot of problems *at the same time*

Which is making it hard to work out what the biggest one is, and where to start

Zebra
Yes. That kind of sucks.

ELiot
It appears that at the bottom of each problem there is a slightly different problem, also with a solution but one that too needs implementation

I am confident that this can all be fixed, I am also confident that you can enjoy the journey of doing so.

Perhaps you might benefit from writing down the problems until you have a clearer picture for yourself

Zebra
Yes, that's how it feels to me too. There's a large web of problems which are fixable with enough effort, but inter-related so hard to fix one at a time, and I don't really feel like I have the effort to do it all at once, nor that it would be worth it.

ELiot
As you talk to me you are clarifying the problems, I imagine that can help to identify them to help solve them.

If I were in your position I would pick the first one that I encountered and try to make a little progress on it before the next one hit me, and trying to make progress on the next one too.

I firmly believe in the concept of _making it easier for future you_.

Zebra
Sometimes I feel that all of them could be fixed in one go with a more radical change, but that's a rather scary thing to do.

ELiot
It is. Especially without experience in radical changes.

Zebra
Well, I moved alone to a country I'd never been when I was 18. So I guess it's not entirely unfamiliar.

ELiot
A change of scenery would probably change the problems. Not necessarily fix them

Zebra
Yeah.

ELiot
It could be the motivation you need to help make it easier for you to make progress

But it could also leave you exhausted and worse off

Zebra
I've looked some into moving to the Republic of Georgia.

But I do have friends here, even if there are only a few remaining and I feel increasingly alienated from them.

ELiot
You might benefit from a time management system

Zebra
Why? I don't have enough to even fill one activity per day...

ELiot
A list of problems, followed by a list of ways to solve the problems followed by a plan of how to spend your next 168 hours towards solving those problems while also not making new ones...

Each week

Energy limited? That's also a problem. With a solution. You do need sleep and rest

Zebra
I usually sleep a lot, but it doesn't feel restful.

I try to go on holidays, but again, usually come back more stressed than before.

ELiot
That too has a solution. Are you getting enough light when you wake up?

Zebra
I typically keep the blinds closed.

I don't like light :(

ELiot
Bright light when you wake up will help you feel awake more. Only when you wake up.

Zebra
But then what do I do?

ELiot
Pick something you want to change and go for it.

The strategy of: "Try X"

It might help to have a notebook paper trail of ideas you have tried

Or thoughts you have had about each problem and how to solve it

Zebra
Most of the things I want to change are hard to change, computer related (and this not really helpful to not feeling terrible and alone), or things I don't have a good plan for how to change.

ELiot
You have as much to do as you want to. You can make a plan.

Zebra
I guess if I did something computer related it could make money, maybe, but I'd still feel awful. In the longer term it may be helpful, but I've tried this before and it is difficult to not get depressed and quit to go cry all day after 30 minutes.

ELiot
Even the meta strategy of "trying to plan" can help

You should write down that idea

It also seems like you apply pressure and expectations above what you have evidence of yourself being capable of.

Zebra
The idea of trying to plan, or?

ELiot
Yes and the "computer thing" idea

You should update on the estimation of your capabilities to be more of a reflection on what you have recently observed you are able to do

Zebra
I have a lot of computer thing ideas. I know pretty specifically how to do them, but sitting it down and typing it out is harder.

Well, I can walk to 7/11 if I put a lot of effort into it.

That's about it...

ELiot
Which is a way of saying to start small. Reset from the beginning (which is not easy)

Zebra
That doesn't seem helpful.

ELiot
That's what your baseline is

Anything upwards is now impressive.

Including this conversation

You have come a long way already

Zebra
Doesn't feel like it. Starting from walking to 7/11 sounds kind of exhausting and not very enjoyable.

ELiot
But that's where you are right now

I would say try habit RPG, but I never found it useful to me

Zebra
Yeah, but I mean, back on to the original point, all this seems much harder than trying to work through my hangups about suicide.

ELiot
Possibly, Yes.

All these problems are solveable, But perhaps

What about the possibility of solving the most immediate discomfort at any time?

What is the most immediate discomfort right now?

Zebra
I feel stressed about life being shit generally, I guess.

Which is generally how I feel when I have nothing specific to be stressed about.

ELiot
What can you do about that right now? How can you make life less generally shit for the you that lives 10 minutes in the future?

Or maybe make yourself feel less stressed about it

Zebra
I guess I could try to do some meditation. That used to work, but hasn't been so much recently.

For the stress part, at least.

I have no idea how to make life immediately less crap in the next ten minutes.

ELiot
I would suggest your environment or hygiene

As they are usually quick low hanging ideas.

Zebra
What sorts of things are you thinking of specifically with regard to those that could be accomplished within 10 minutes?

ELiot
A shower, a little cleaning up your space, changing clothes

Taking out the trash

Zebra
I guess that's doable.

Zebra
Welp, done that. I suppose I do feel mildly better...

ELiot
That particular strategy is called success spirals. Successfully doing a thing to help the you of the future slightly. One bit at a time.

I should add - if you want to talk about death we should have that talk too

Death, dying, pain

Zebra
Well, death seems somewhat scary in the immediate sense.

Especially death by falling, which is the most low-effort solution for someone living in a high rise building.

ELiot
You need at least 10 floors to be confident of a sudden death

Zebra
More high-effort strategies, like pentobarbital or such, seem more palatable, but not quite as immediately actionable.

I'm on the tenth floor, and I think there's 20 something.

ELiot
And it depends whether you want to impact others I. E. Seeing you fall and or the body

Zebra
I don't really care, though obviously I wouldn't want anyone seeing me "on the ledge" if I couldn't go through with it.

OTOH, nighttime is a thing.

ELiot
Yes

Zebra
But it's ... scary.

Have you ever been with someone during suicide?

ELiot
No, I recently discouraged someone from taking action in person. They were making rash decisions at the time

Zebra
Ah

ELiot
At least 3 people in my life have come close. They are not all better yet, still in limbo of up and down

I would still encourage you to do the things that you want. Have you read the guilt series by nate soares?

Zebra
No. What is it about?

ELiot
Why we have guilt and defeating it where it's not appropriate

Zebra
I don't think I experience a significant amount of guilt.

ELiot
Guilt in the sense of, "should be going out" but "should stay in". The conflicting desire of parts of you to do different things. And sorting it out
Zebra
Ah, hmm

I will read the Guilt series then...

ELiot
I also went through a period of time when I felt purposeless, I described it as, "everything is meaningless" and it's bothering me. As distinctly different to, "everything is meaningless and it doesn't matter"

Zebra
Everything being meaningless doesn't bother me. I don't think meaningfulness is a possible thing in any universe. Everything being shitty and empty bothers me, but that's rather different.

http://mindingourway.com/dont-steer-with-guilt/ <- this?

ELiot
Yes, but that's the middle of the series, better to start in the beginning

http://mindingourway.com/guilt/

That's the table of contents

Zebra
Hmm, it's a pretty good read.

------------------------------------ Later in time...............
Zebra
Finished it. It was long!

I liked it more than Eliezer's writing. It may even have been potentially useful irl, maybe.

ELiot
do you think you can apply things to your life?

Zebra
Maybe. I've been trying to do the breaking things up part.

I made a small amount of money with stupid computer things... I guess that's a modicum of progress, maybe.

I liked the last part about changing goals. That might be useful.

Visualising bad things seems like a potentially helpful strategy as well.

Zebra
A lot of the techniques do seem effective. Hopefully it will make a positive difference.

---------------------A long time later--------------
ELiot
hey

I promised to get back to you.

how are things?

Zebra
Hi

ELiot
it's been a while..

Zebra
I'm doing somewhat better. Got on meds for bipolar disorder, which has helped a lot.

Yeah. Been trying to actually do things now, so I feel less stagnant.

ELiot
Oh! great!

Zebra
Hopefully life will end up in a better place than before.

---

The Problem TM

What is actually the problem?  I have a theory, but I also wanted to publish this without declaring my answer.  I will share my ideas in a few weeks but I want to know what you think and how you came to that answer.

---

Meta: this conversation happened over 6 months ago, this took 2 hours to collate, tidy and publish.

Originally published here: http://bearlamp.com.au/the-problem-tm-analyse-a-conversation/

Many people are probably aware of the hack at DAO, using a bug in their smart contract system to steal millions of dollars worth of the crypto currency Ethereum.

There's various arguments as to whether this theft was technically allowed or not, and what should be done about it, and so on. Many people are arguing that the code is the contract, and that therefore no-one should be allowed to interfere with it - DAO just made a coding mistake, and are now being (deservedly?) punished for it.

That got me wondering whether its ever possible to make a smart contract without a full AI of some sort. For instance, if the contract is triggered by the delivery of physical goods - how can you define what the goods are, what constitutes delivery, what constitutes possession of them, and so on. You could have a human confirm delivery - but that's precisely the kind of judgement call you want to avoid. You could have an automated delivery confirmation system - but what happens if someone hacks or triggers that? You could connect it automatically with scanning headlines of media reports, but again, this is relying on aggregated human judgement, which could be hacked or influenced.

Digital goods seem more secure, as you can automate confirmation of delivery/services rendered, and so on. But, again, this leaves the confirmation process open to hacking. Which would be illegal, if you're going to profit from the hack. Hum...

This seems the most promising avenue for smart contracts that doesn't involve full AI: clear out the bugs in the code, then ground the confirmation procedure in such a way that it can only be hacked in a way that's already illegal. Sort of use the standard legal system as a backstop, fixing the basic assumptions, and then setting up the smart contracts on top of them (which is not the same as using the standard legal system within the contract).