Comment author: Nubulous 11 October 2009 07:21:55AM *  1 point [-]

If you want to integrate the phenomenal into your ontology, is there any reason you've stopped short of phenomenalism ?

EDIT: Not sarcasm - quite serious.

Comment author: Nubulous 11 October 2009 06:25:31AM 1 point [-]

I came up with the following while pondering the various probability puzzles of recent weeks, and I found it clarified some of my confusion about the issues, so I thought I'd post it here to see if anyone else liked it:

Consider an experiment in which we toss a coin, to chose whether a person is placed into a one room hotel or duplicated and placed into a two room hotel. For each resulting instance of the person, we repeat the procedure. And so forth, repeatedly. The graph of this would be a tree in which the persons were edges and the hotels nodes. Each layer of the tree (each generation) would have equal numbers of 1-nodes and 2-nodes (on average, when numerous). So each layer would have 1.5 times as many outgoing edges as incoming, with 2/3 of the outgoing being from 2-nodes. If we pick a path away from the root, representing the person's future, in each layer we are going to have an even chance of arriving at a 1- or 2- node, so our future will contain equal numbers of 1- and 2- hotels. If we pick a path towards the root, representing the person's past, in each layer we have a 2/3 chance of arriving at a 2-node, meaning that our past contained twice as many 2-hotels as 1-hotels.

Comment author: PlaidX 11 October 2009 04:27:29AM 0 points [-]

But again I must ask, on the going-forward basis, why is the number of people in each world irrelevant? I grant you that the WORLD splits into even thirds, but the people in it don't, they split 1000000 / 1 / 0. Where are you getting 1 / 1 / 0?

Comment author: Nubulous 11 October 2009 05:13:58AM 0 points [-]

Because if you agree that the correct way to measure the probability is as the occurrence ratio along the path, the degree of splitting is only significant to the extent that it affects the occurrence ratio, which in this case it doesn't. The coin toss chooses equiprobably which hotel comes next, then it's on to the next coin toss to equiprobably choose which hotel comes next, and so forth. So each path has on average equal numbers of each hotel, going forwards.

Comment author: PlaidX 08 October 2009 03:08:37AM *  3 points [-]

So, if omega picks a number from 1 to 3, and depending on the result makes:

A. a hotel with a million rooms

B. a hotel with one room

C. a pile of flaming tires

you'd say that a person has a 50% chance of finding themselves in situation A or B, but a 0% chance of being in C?

Why does the number of people only matter when the number of people is zero? Doesn't that strike you as suspicious?

Comment author: Nubulous 10 October 2009 11:39:22PM 0 points [-]

When we speak of a subjective probability in a person-multiplying experiment such as this, we (or at least, I) mean "The outcome ratio experienced by a person who was randomly chosen from the resulting population of the experiment, then was used as the seed for an identical experiment, then was randomly chosen from the resulting population, then was used as the seed.... and so forth, ad infinitum".

I'm not confident that we can speak of having probabilities in problems which can't in theory be cast in this form.

In other words, the probability is along a path. When you look at the problem this way, it throws some light on why there are two different arguable values for the probability. If you look back along the path, ("what ratio will our person have experienced") the answer in your experiment is 1000000:1. If you look forward along the path, ("what ratio will our person experience") the answer is 1:1 (in the flaming-tires case there's no path, so there's no probability).

Comment author: PlaidX 06 October 2009 10:35:54PM 0 points [-]

I don't understand what you mean by subjective and objective probabilities. Would you still agree with the philosopher in my problem if omega flipped a coin (or looked at binary digit 5000 of pi) and then built the small hotel OR the big hotel?

Comment author: Nubulous 08 October 2009 12:43:05AM 0 points [-]

I don't know what I meant either. I remember it making perfect sense at the time, but that was after 35 hours without sleep, so.....

The answer to the second part is no, I would expect a 50:50 chance in that case.
In case you were thinking of this as a counterexample, I also expect a 50:50 chance in all the cases there from B onwards. The claim that the probabilities are unchanged by the coin toss is wrong, since the coin toss changes the number of participants, and we already accepted that the number of participants was a factor in the probability when we assigned the 99% probability in the first place.

Comment author: PlaidX 06 October 2009 08:52:10AM 0 points [-]

Ah, so the difference isn't that I used hotels instead of universes, it's that I used hotels instead of POSSIBLE hotels. In other words, your likelihood of being in a hotel depends on the number of "you"s in the hotel, but your likelihood of being in a possible hotel does not, is that what you're saying?

Unless the number of "you"s is zero. Then it clearly does depend on the number. Isn't this just packing and unpacking?

Comment author: Nubulous 06 October 2009 01:08:52PM 0 points [-]

You're reading a little more into what I said than was actually there. I was just remarking on the change of dependence between the parts of the problem, without having thought through what the consequences would be.

Now that I have thought it through, I agree with the presumptuous philosopher in this case. However I don't agree with him about the size of the universe. The difference being that in the hotel case we want a subjective probability, whereas in the universe case we want an objective one. Subjectively, there's a very high probability of finding yourself in a big universe/hotel. But subjective probabilities are over subjective universes, and there are very very many subjective large universes for the one objective large universe, so a very high subjective probability of finding yourself in a large universe doesn't imply a large objective probability of being found in one.

Comment author: PlaidX 05 October 2009 07:53:13PM 2 points [-]

I thought of this, but then, in the other direction, is the problem non-isomorphic to the original presumptuous philosopher problem? If so, why?

Is it because I used hotels instead of universes? Is it because the existence of both hotels has probability 100% instead of probability 50%? Is it some other thing?

Comment author: Nubulous 06 October 2009 07:15:49AM 0 points [-]

The most obvious difference is that the original problem involved the smaller or the larger set of people whereas this one uses the smaller and the larger.

Comment author: JamesAndrix 29 September 2009 10:06:35PM 1 point [-]

I fail to see why that is the general case.

For that matter, I fail to see why losing some(many, most) of my atoms and having them be quickly replaced by atoms doing the exact same job should be viewed as me dying at all.

Comment author: Nubulous 01 October 2009 05:27:27AM *  3 points [-]

I fail to see why that is the general case.

If you have two people to start with, and one when you've finished, without any further stipulation about which people they are, then you have lost a person somewhere. To come to a different conclusion would require an additional rule, which is why it's the general case.
That additional rule would have to specify that a duplicate doesn't count as a second person. But since that duplicate could subsequently go on to have a separate different life of its own, the grounds for denying it personhood seem quite weak.

For that matter, I fail to see why losing some(many, most) of my atoms and having them be quickly replaced by atoms doing the exact same job should be viewed as me dying at all.

It's not dying in the sense of there no longer being a you, but it is still dying in the sense of there being fewer of you.
To take the example of you being merged with someone, those atoms you lose, together with the ones you don't take from the other person, make enough atoms, doing the right jobs, to make a whole new person. In the symmetrical case, a second "you". That "you" could have gone on to live its own life, but now won't. Hence a "you" has died in the process.

In other words, merge is equivalent to "swap pieces then kill".
The above looks as though it will work just as well with bits, or the physical representation of bits, rather than atoms (for the symmetrical case).

Comment author: JamesAndrix 29 September 2009 04:43:01AM 1 point [-]

In the case where the people are computer programs, none of that works.

Comment author: Nubulous 29 September 2009 07:34:41PM 0 points [-]

If you mean that a quantitative merge on a digital computer is generally impossible, you may be right. But the example I gave suggests that merging is death in the general case, and is presumably so even for identical merges, which can be done on a computer.

Comment author: Nubulous 27 September 2009 07:43:10PM *  6 points [-]

When you wake up, you will almost certainly have won (a trillionth of the prize). The subsequent destruction of winners (sort of - see below) reduces your probability of being the surviving winner back to one in a billion.

Merging N people into 1 is the destruction of N-1 people - the process may be symmetrical but each of the N can only contribute 1/N of themself to the outcome.

The idea of being (N-1)/N th killed may seem a little odd at first, but less so if you compare it to the case where half of one person's brain is merged with half of a different person's (and the leftovers discarded).

EDIT: Note that when the trillion were told they won, they were actually being lied to - they had won a trillionth part of the prize, one way or another.

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