Comment author: malcolmocean 24 June 2016 05:05:30PM 1 point [-]

Honestly, I'm not sure I will. The response on LW continues to be aversively critical, so I crosspost here relatively rarely. I really appreciate your comment though, in light of that.

If you want to stay on top of my posts, I recommend my newsletter or rss.

Although perhaps your saying "continue to crosspost" is less about you wanting to read my writing in particular and more you just generally wanting LW to have long-form content on it... in which case, well, we'll see.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 24 June 2016 05:38:32PM 1 point [-]

The response on LW continues to be aversively critical

Yeeeeup.

It's not the upvotes/downvotes, either. It's the comments.

Comment author: Dagon 24 June 2016 02:50:22PM 0 points [-]

People in other countries (note: I'm anti-nationalist, and prefer to just say "people", or if I need to distinguish, "people distant from me") starving is not under my control, but I can have a slight influence that makes it a small amount better for a lot of them. To me, this absolutely puts it in bounds for ethical consideration

Put in decision-making terms as opposed to ethical framing, "my utility function includes terms for the lives of distant strangers". For me, ethics is about analyzing and debating (with myself, mostly) the coefficients of those terms.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 24 June 2016 03:56:40PM 0 points [-]

Okay. Imagine two versions of you: In one, you were born into a society in which, owing to nuclear war, the country you live in is the only one remaining. It is just as wealthy as our own current society owing to the point this hypothesis is leading to.

The other version of you exists in a society much more like the one we live in, where poor people are starving to death.

I'll observe that, strictly in terms of ethical obligations, the person in the scenario in which the poor people didn't exist is ethically superior, because fewer ethical obligations are being unmet. In spite of their actions being exactly the same.

Outside the hypothetical: I agree wholeheartedly the world in which poor people don't starve is better than the one in which they do. That's the world I'd prefer exist. I simply fail to see it as an ethical issue, as I regard ethics as being the governance of one's own behavior rather than the governance of the world.

Comment author: Dagon 23 June 2016 04:24:54PM 0 points [-]

I answered a slightly different question. I don't think all ethics or moral systems do either or both of these things. My preferred ruleset (consequentialist personal regret-minimization) both prohibits and requires action, and in fact doesn't distinguish between the two.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 23 June 2016 05:27:36PM 0 points [-]

I'd classify it loosely as Both; nothing requires an ethical system to distinguish between the two cases, but I think it's a substantial divide in the way people tend to think about ethics.

I'm starting to think "ethics" is an incoherent concept. I'm a strict-negative ethicist - yet I do have an internal concept of a preference hierarchy, in terms of what I want the world to look like, which probably looks a lot like what most people would think of as part of their ethics system. It's just... not part of my ethics. Yes, I'd prefer it if poor people in other countries didn't starve to death, but this isn't an ethical problem, and trying to include it in your ethics looks... confused, to me. How can your ethical status be determined by things outside your control? How can we say a selfish person living in utopia is a better person, ethically, than a selfish person living in a dystopia?

Which isn't to say I'm right. More than half the users apparently include positive ethics in their ethical systems.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 22 June 2016 05:21:40PM -1 points [-]

Incidentally, do we have anybody about who can answer a very specific question about meditation practice? (And if you don't know exactly why I'm asking this question, instead of asking the question I want to ask, you shouldn't volunteer to try to answer.)

Comment author: OrphanWilde 22 June 2016 03:12:11PM *  1 point [-]

A thought occurred to me on a divide in ethical views that goes frequently unremarked, so I thought I'd ask about it: How many of you think ethics/morality is strictly Negative (prohibits action, but never requires action), a combination of Both (can both prohibit or require action), or something else entirely?

ETA: First poll I've used here, and I was hoping to view it, then edit the behavior. Please don't mind the "Option" issue in the format.

Submitting...

Comment author: Pimgd 10 June 2016 10:35:52AM *  -1 points [-]

Got -1 on each post in this chain - downvoter, mind providing feedback? If I'm making some mistake here, I'd like to know.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 10 June 2016 01:37:35PM 0 points [-]

If somebody downvotes an entire chain of content you've posted, you're probably expressing an idea they disagree with, rather than making a mistake. (Not always true, but usually.)

Comment author: lucidian 12 January 2015 06:20:20PM 9 points [-]

Highly recommend kazerad, for Scott-level insights about human behavior. Here's his analysis of 4chan's anonymous culture. Here's another insightful essay of his. And a post on memetics. And these aren't necessarily the best posts I've read by him, just the three I happened to find first.

By the way, I'm really averse to the label "hidden rationalists". It's like complimenting people by saying "secretly a member of our ingroup, but just doesn't know it yet". Which simultaneously presupposes the person would want to be a member of our ingroup, and also that all worthwhile people are secretly members of our ingroup and just don't know it yet.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 09 June 2016 08:20:09PM 0 points [-]

Highly recommend kazerad, for Scott-level insights about human behavior. Here's his analysis of 4chan's anonymous culture. Here's another insightful essay of his. And a post on memetics. And these aren't necessarily the best posts I've read by him, just the three I happened to find first.

I gave him/her a shot.

After five or six pages of angry ranting about Gamergate, which was four or five pages too many, I quit. I have no dog in that fight, and I find the notion of arguing about specific people's specific lives as if they were culturally or socially significant to be a really misguided enterprise. It's tribal superstimulus, and it is both addictive and socially self-destructive.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 07 June 2016 02:23:14PM 4 points [-]

You've encrypted a brain, and maybe salted it a bit to boot. You're still running the brain's "consciousness" program, it's just encrypted, and the brain is still experiencing exactly the same things, on account of it is running exactly the same program it would otherwise. The fact that the brain is cryptographically entangled with other data doesn't make the brain not exist.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 03 June 2016 06:51:27PM 5 points [-]

Something I and my local group of conversational partners noticed (I don't have a better word for it) over the weekend: Greek philosophy was a matter of law; Theseus' Ship had tax consequences, and shifting conventions in philosophy had legal ramifications. Greek philosophy was argued in court; Sophists were lawyers who were paid to argue your case, and would argue any side whatsoever, as that was what they were paid to do. Socrates had to die, not because he was annoying important people (which he was), but because he insisted on a "pure" philosophy, and was causing all kinds of legal havoc.

It's an observation which probably isn't particularly unique, as all the clues are in just about every philosophy book I've ever read, but it's an interesting part of the history of the divergence between instrumental and epistemic rationality.

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 June 2016 08:43:28PM *  0 points [-]

No, but suggesting I am "influenced by tribal motivations" while asking for evidence is. You're mixing an insult with a request for information; you've already decided I am wrong.

Given your own charge that other people are mindkilled it's interesting that you see that charge as an insult and not as a factual description. I didn't intent to insult, but to state a hypothesis. A hypothesis that I stated with the word "maybe" to mark uncertainty. Don't generalize from one example.

Stating a hypothesis does not mean I decided that believe a certain outcome. It just put forward a point about which I intent to communicate.

Fighting the hypothetical

The opposite of fighting the hypothetical is to avoid critical thinking and not challenge it's assumptions.

The problem with the hypothetical is that it ignores how beliefs in a society actually form. That's a process that's vital to the topic at hand. At a core it assumes that a society has beliefs about a war hold 50 years ago that have nothing to do with propaganda.

It's a point that I might made irrespectable of whether the story I'm reading favors a group that I support politically.

There are real criticisms to be made, and their absence is quite conspicuous given the strongly negative tone of the commentary.

What does "conspicuous" mean here? That you should treat people as being an enemy tribe? That's tribal thinking.

It's not thinking though the actual concent of the post.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 01 June 2016 11:30:25PM 0 points [-]

Given your own charge that other people are mindkilled it's interesting that you see that charge as an insult and not as a factual description.

It is a claim of irrationality; yes, it should be taken as insulting.

I didn't intent to insult, but to state a hypothesis. A hypothesis that I stated with the word "maybe" to mark uncertainty. Don't generalize from one example.

I hypothesize you may be an idiot. (Do you see the issue?)

The opposite of fighting the hypothetical is to avoid critical thinking and not challenge it's assumptions.

Reversed stupidity isn't intelligence. Something can be poor rationality, and its opposite can be poor rationality as well.

The problem with the hypothetical is that it ignores how beliefs in a society actually form. That's a process that's vital to the topic at hand. At a core it assumes that a society has beliefs about a war hold 50 years ago that have nothing to do with propaganda.

No it doesn't. It makes it clear that there's motivated reasoning - and thus propaganda - going on on both sides of the equation.

What does "conspicuous" mean here? That you should treat people as being an enemy tribe? That's tribal thinking.

No. It means there are clear and obvious problems with the article that COULD have been criticized, but weren't, in favor of dumb tribal things to criticize.

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