Comment author: Ozymandias_King 30 July 2013 07:55:29PM 18 points [-]

Donated 1400$

Comment author: JamesCole 29 May 2009 01:51:58PM *  19 points [-]

A currently existing social norm basically says that everyone has the right to an opinion on anything, no matter how little they happen to know about the subject.

...what if we had a social norm saying that by default, people do not have the right to an opinion on anything?

I get what you're saying, but I don't think that's quite the problem.

The real problem is the social norm that says "you aren't allowed to be critical of someone else's view because everyone has the right to an opinion".

The italicized bit is the problem. I think everyone should have the right to an opinion, but also that everyone should have the right to be able to express criticisms of other's opinions.

(I think the "you can't criticise other's views" thing stems from relativism).

Comment author: Ozymandias_King 31 May 2009 02:18:10PM *  1 point [-]

I think the way we conduct debating has become stuck in a bad place.

In a debate we want to win quickly, all else equal. But all else is not equal. If you try specifically to be nice, and complement the person on the things they do get right, they have an easier time accepting criticism. In any other social situation than a purely factual debate, would you even think of only being adversarial?

This general climate is the aggregate consequence of every debate we have.

If the approach is: "Everything about you sucks, now CHANGE!" The reception will not be: "Okay, I will change X and Y, but not Z" but: "My opinions shall be immune to criticism"

The internet has enabled this polarization, by making the rationalist crowd (rightfully) more fundamentalist about their epistemic skill.

When you see that logic and evidence works to clear up so much confusion and falsity in your beliefs, you think that you can cure the "sick" person of all his diseases in one fell swoop.

Thinking of the dilemma as one of opposing "rights" also doesn't help: [My right to criticize your beliefs] vs [Your right to have them not be criticized]

When they refuse to listen to your criticism you feel angry about your rights not being respected, rather than sad that you cannot help them towards better beliefs.


Disclaimer: The "You" in this comment is the "We as rationalists"

Comment author: JamesCole 29 May 2009 02:01:24PM 4 points [-]

If we had in place a social norm demanding an adequate amount of background knowledge on the topic before anyone voiced an opinion they expected to be taken seriously, the signal/noise ratio might be somewhat improved.

Unfortunately that'd skew things towards the status quo.

Advances in knowledge often come from taking a very different angle on a problem, by someone who isn't immersed -- and thus not necessarily knowledgeable in -- the existing viewpoints about the problem (e.g. by amateurs or people from different fields).

Ultimately a person's view should be judged just on its own merits.

Comment author: Ozymandias_King 31 May 2009 01:37:44PM 0 points [-]

IAWY, but

It's easy to overestimate the size of this effect.

  • We would expect a priori that more information is useful
  • We often don't know how much the person who succeeds where others fail in fact did know.
  • "The Wright Brothers succeeding despite lack of experience/knowledge" -story is more easily remembered and spread because it's feels better.
Comment author: JamesCole 29 May 2009 03:40:36PM *  6 points [-]

I think a norm is likely to be a product of the solution, not the solution itself.

So the problem is we have a lot of people who don't appreciate what constitutes a reasonable foundation for an opinion. They think they can just say what they feel. To put it one way, they have a poor understanding of the nature of evidence.

I don't think a norm like you describe could have any effect on anyone like that who had a poor understanding of evidence. Those people would just think the norm was wrong or ridiculous.

If they were to come to better understand the nature of evidence, they would be more receptive to the norm. But if they were to undestand evidence better then simply from this fact you'd get the desired result of people not mouthing off as much with "ignorant opinions".

So it the solution has to involve getting people to better understand the nature of evidence (or however you want to describe what is missing from their mental toolkit).

If you were to get enough people to understand the nature of evidence, that could lead to the creation of such a norm. I doubt it could happen the other way around.

Caveat: I'm not 100% confident the above story is true, but I think there's at least and element of truth in it.

Comment author: Ozymandias_King 31 May 2009 01:29:46PM 0 points [-]

Do you mean something like:

If being merely informed becomes the norm before rational reasoning is a norm, you just end up with the case of more informed political subjects becoming more polarized and more certain of their views. Badly calibrated and worse off than when they started.

Comment author: Psychohistorian 30 May 2009 04:41:31AM *  2 points [-]

"Everyone has a right to his/her opinion" is a social standard because it helps people get along. The total solution to this problem is not telling people that they aren't entitled to their opinions, so much as making it so that when you someone's opinion is ill-founded, they say, "Hey, you're right. I should change my opinion!"

Given that, in reality, that almost never happens, the expression exists as a way of maintaining civility. That way the person pointing out that no, the earth is not 6000 years old becomes the "bad guy" if he keeps pushing the point after this defense is invoked. Not good for truth, but good for short-term social stability.

On the note of what an opinion is, the expression is totally accurate with respect to matters of taste, e.g. "Chocolate is the best ice cream flavor." But with fact-entangled should statements, e.g "The federal government should raise taxes on the top income bracket," the speaker is actually (usually) expressing a factual claim, such as this being an effective way to reduce the budget deficit. To the extent that these are factual claims, you are not entitled to them.

Comment author: Ozymandias_King 31 May 2009 01:15:04PM *  3 points [-]

How useful are debates in general for changing the opinions of the person you are debating with? Most debates are implicitly or explicitly framed as contests with opponents, a zero-sum game. The right thing might be to focus more on the 3rd party onlookers, some consequences might be:

*Seek bigger debates (more viewers)

*Feel less sad when your opponent "beats" you, using twisted logic.

*Present more and different types of arguments.

*Do wrestle pigs, if the debate is entertaining and public.

*Focus more on getting new info in a debate, then isolate yourself to perform belief updates when you are not in contest mode anymore.

*If the last point applies equally to your opponent, stop before they get annoyed with you. Allow them to perform calm private reasoning later instead.

Can someone think of others?

Comment author: Ozymandias_King 31 May 2009 12:59:32PM 0 points [-]

I agree that the end result would be valuable, but I think that changing norms for a whole society would be very hard.

Although it might still be easier than the converse of raising the rationality of a whole society: being informed has higher status in society than being rational. It is more related to being a professor, journalist or talking head, whereas rationality is more associated to being a nerd, scientist or economist.

Comment author: Ozymandias_King 31 May 2009 12:48:34PM 1 point [-]

I think the causality has to run: X-Rationalists raise the standards for ordinary rationalists and scientists-> People connected to the scientists raise their standards-> Everyone else

Sort of top down by osmosis rather than decree. Everyone gets slightly better, but most ordinary people won't have to unrealistically become X-Rationalists.