Comment author: Houshalter 02 October 2010 03:28:56PM *  0 points [-]

Thats the problem, where do you draw the line between rehabilitation and punishment? Getting criminals out of society is one benefit of prisons, but so is creating deterent to commit crimes. If I was a poor person and prison was this nice awesome place full of luxuries, I might actually want to go to prison. Obviously thats an extreme example, but how much of a cost getting caught is certainly plays a role when you ponder commiting a crime.

In ancient societies, they had barbaric punishments for criminals. The crime rate was high and they were rarely caught. And when resources are limited, providing someone free food and shelter is to costly and starving people might actually try to get in. Not to mention they didn't have any ways of rehabilitating people.

Personally I am in favor of more rehabilitation. There are alot of repeat offenders in jail, and most criminals are irrational and afffected by bias anyways, so trying treating them like rational agents doesn't work.

Comment author: Patashu 04 October 2010 05:33:48AM 2 points [-]

In the case where someone wishes to commit a crime so they can spend time in jail, they'll probably perform something petty, which isn't TOO bad especially if they can confess and the goods be returned (or an equivalent). If social planning can lower the poverty rate and provide ample social nets and re-education for people in a bad spot in their lives in the first place, this thing is also less likely to be a problem (conversely, if more people become poor, prisons will be pressured to become worse to keep them below the perceived bottom line). Finally, prison can be made to be nice, but it isolates you from friends, family and all places outside the prison, and imposes routine on you, so if you desire control over your life you'll be discouraged from going there.

Comment author: Houshalter 31 May 2010 06:37:11PM -2 points [-]

Before things go that far, shouldn't a society set up voluntary programs for treatment?

Who would volunteer to go to jail? Seriously, if the cops came to your door and told you that because your statistics suggested you were likely to commit a crime and you had to go to a "rehabilitation program", would you want to go, or resist (if possible)?

Exactly how does one draw the line between punishment and treatment?

From this, hypothetical, point of view, there is no difference. There is no real punishment, but you can hardly call sending someone to jail or worse, execution, treatment.

"consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences."

Comment author: Patashu 02 October 2010 10:20:56AM 0 points [-]

Jails don't HAVE to be places of cruel and unusual punishment, as they are currently in the US. The prisons in Norway, for instance, are humane - they almost look like real homes. The purpose of a jail is served (ensuring people can't harm those in society) while diminishing side effects as much as possible and encouraging rehabilitation. Example: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/europe/091017/norway-open-prison

Comment author: mattnewport 27 September 2010 04:09:50AM *  12 points [-]

I can't identify a single example other than Marxism in the last hundred years where the intellectual establishment has been very wrong

I'm reading The Rational Optimist at the moment which has a few examples.

Malthusian ideas about impending starvation or resource exhaustion due to population growth have been popular with intellectuals for a long time but particularly so in the last 100 years. Paul Ehrlich is a well known example. He famously lost his bet with economist Julian Simon on resource scarcity. His prediction in The Population Bomb in 1968 that India would never feed itself was proved wrong that same year. These ideas were generally widely held in intellectual circles (and still are) but there is a long track record of specific predictions relating to these theories that have proved wrong.

Another case that springs to mind: it looks increasingly likely that the mainstream advice on diet as embodied in things like the USDA food guide pyramid was deeply flawed. The dominant theory in the intellectual establishment regarding the relationship between fat, cholesterol and heart disease also looks pretty shaky in light of new research and evidence.

I'd also argue that the intellectual establishment over the latter half of the twentieth century has over emphasized the blank-slate / nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate and neglected the evidence for a genetic basis to many human differences.

Comment author: Patashu 28 September 2010 10:48:11AM 1 point [-]

Population/natural resource exhaustion related crises are a bit iffy, because it is plainly obvious that if they remain exponentially growing forever, relative to linearly growing or constant resources (like room to live on), one or the other has got to give. Mispredicting when it will happen is different from knowing that it has to happen eventually, and how could it not? Even expanding into space won't solve the problem, since the number of planets we can reach as time goes on is smaller than exponential population growth rates and demands for resources.

There are definitely plenty of other scientifically held views that get overturned here and there, though - another example is fever, which for centuries has been considered a negative side effect of an infection, but lately it's been found to have beneficial properties, as certain elements of your immune system function better when the temperature rises (and certain viruses function worse). http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727711.400-fever-friend-or-foe.html