Comment author: polymathwannabe 25 July 2014 10:49:53PM 1 point [-]

I took no position on the truth value of the premises.

Your translation of the analogy takes the postition that the status dichotomy is a thing. The rest follows from that assumption.

If the views I enumerated are not your views, you need to refine your analogy, because the way it's written matches them neatly. The fact that my list of proposed solutions was perceived as having an overly physical emphasis seems to me like evidence of how much this analogy oversimplifies what it tries to represent.

Let's reread your post:

an unjust world, where the ethics of an act is determined by characteristics of the Martian that they cannot be held responsible for.

Being a pleasant person to be around is beyond a man's responsibility?

However, human ethicists are not very familiar with Martian physiology...

Is this supposed to mean that women don't get how the male mind works?

a group of recently metamorphosed Blue Martians are vocally spreading information on the internet about tickling techniques.

They may be green for all we know. Being a published guru is no guarantee that he knows what he's talking about.

if used imperfectly they increase the sting of the stinging hairs fourfold.

It may be the method's fault as often as the user's.

Now let's address your actual questions:

Is it unethical for a Green Martian to attempt to metamorphose?

Is it unethical to attempt to become a better person? Absolutely not. BUT, as with everything, a good end does not justify nasty means.

Does this depend on whether they believe themselves to be fast or slow learners?

In your example, tickling is described in terms one would commonly use to refer to an optional pastime, but it actually stands for a fundamental biological urge with deep psychological and social consequences. This complicates the attempt to give an answer. Should I try to play chess? is not the same question as Should I try to get laid? Having a low expectation of success in mastering a pastime does affect your motivation to learn it, while it only has a moderate effect on your motivation to follow your biological urges. However, since there's nothing wrong with wanting to get laid per se, or wanting to become a more desirable person, I'll answer that everyone should be allowed, in fact encouraged, to learn.

Should only the small subset of Martians who intuitively understand the tickling techniques be allowed to use them?

Chess child prodigies should have the chance to play as much as they like, but it makes no sense to keep the game's rules from everyone else. So, same as the previous question.

Is spreading explicit information about the techniques unethical?

It is only as acceptable as the techniques themselves.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 11:08:24PM *  5 points [-]

Your translation of the analogy takes the postition that the status dichotomy is a thing. The rest follows from that assumption.

No, it takes the position that there exist people who believe status dichotomy is a thing, and then explores some of the consequences if this belief were to be true.

Moreover, status dichotomy is very obviously a lossy compression. For some purposes, this construct will lose so much information as to be useless. For other purposes, the information that is lost by dichotomizing status is not essential, and so it may still be a useful model.

In order to convince me that dichotomous status is not a useful model when what we are interested in is exploring the ethical issues in this post, you would have to show me a situation where considering a continuous or multidimensional status construct is necessary in order to make an essential point with implications for the correct ethical choice. If you are able to do this, you will have contributed a lot to the conversation, and I will have learned something important.

Being a pleasant person to be around is beyond a man's responsibility?

No, what I meant was that a Martian cannot be held morally responsible for whether he is Green or Blue.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 25 July 2014 10:00:15PM *  2 points [-]

Is Action X moral?

That's an ill posed question. Moral, according to what/whose moral standard?

If Clippy successfully grinds up half of humanity, and churns them out as shiny new paper clips, he would likely consider himself mighty moral_clippy ( if he even has a concept of morality - does he?). But we wouldn't find him so moral_human, or moral_human_i.

The various twists and turns of the scenario merely obfuscate the more fundamental issue - what/whose moral standards are we talking about?

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 10:10:57PM 0 points [-]

I am a moral realist, I believe there exists an objective moral standard which is part of the territory. This is the moral standard we are talking about.

Obviously, we are unable to know whether our ethical maps correspond to the ethical territory. We should therefore update our priors about the ethical territory in response to good arguments and thought experiments. Throughout this discussion, I have made several updates to my beliefs.

If we don't believe there is such a thing as an objective ethical standard, if the territory doesn't exist, then I fail to see the point in even discussing ethics.

Comment author: Adele_L 25 July 2014 09:52:45PM 9 points [-]

Some ideas:

  • It might be good to have designated spaces where Green Martians can practice tickling participating humans. As more and more of these spaces become available, it becomes more and more socially unacceptable for Green Martians to tickle humans elsewhere. Obviously, for this to work, there would need to be a sufficiently high number of humans willing to participate.

  • For me, a large part of minor annoyances is anticipating minor annoyances. Imagining myself as a human, I might get really sick of stung randomly throughout the day. It would be easier to deal with the occasional sting if they were constrained to certain times of the day or to certain environments. For example, I think it would be good to make a taboo against tickling at work. The blue martians can always tickle later, and the humans would be able to work without having to worry about getting stung.

  • Now imagining myself as a Green Martian, I feel like I would naturally feel bad about stinging humans, and try to avoid it for the most part. This anxiety would be significantly worse if the humans visibly disliked me for stinging them. But I would be desperate for someone who could help me become a Blue Martian. Learning the Blue Martian's techniques would be very tempting... Something that might be a good alternative would be if there were humans working with the Blue Martians, finding ways to make the techniques more robust.

  • Also, studying the transformation process more carefully would probably be very helpful for everyone.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 09:58:10PM 0 points [-]

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for. I don't really have anything to add, I agree with essentially everything here. Can we can please keep the discussion at this level?

Comment author: David_Gerard 25 July 2014 09:27:54PM 2 points [-]

PeerGynt has, in fact, constructed an analogy to something he doesn't understand. This is useful if he then learns from others' critique of the analogy that he does not understand the original.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 09:44:47PM *  0 points [-]

I am certainly learning from any useful comments that are made, regardless of which position they take. This is not one of those comments. It is also the only comment in the thread which I have downvoted - I am trying to have a discussion about ethics in a hypothetical world, not a flame war.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 25 July 2014 09:25:44PM -1 points [-]

Some of your views are discernible. You seem to think men can be visibly divided into "high status" and "low status", and that those categories can be matched to "sexually desirable" and "sexually undesirable," and that all women have the same opinion about which men fall into which category, and that women are not initiators of sexual contact. Real life is a lot more complicated than that.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 09:34:46PM *  7 points [-]

Those are not my views:

First of all, I took no position on the truth value of the premises.

Secondly, I fully recognize that my analogy is a simplified map of a map. It does not accurately represent the full territory.

The question is whether the aspects of the territory that I have glossed over are important for the resolution of the ethical question. If there are any such aspects, please feel free to point them out. I do recognize that some of the aspects that have been pointed out, such as consent, are important. I have upvoted those comments and attempted to explain why I think you can make the argument that the analogy still has some validity.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 25 July 2014 08:31:44PM 13 points [-]

(Note : This parable is obviously an allegory for something.

I'm glad you spelled the analogy out in another comment, because I would never have guessed that was what you were talking about.

That the parable can be interpreted according to that key is such an outlandish statement that I can immediately think of several blogs where, if I bought it to their attention (which I certainly will not), it would elicit an avalanche of incredulous scorn that would dwarf all the drama about Roko's Basilisk.

Discussing whether the allegory is valid is interesting, but will lead to mindkill.

Quite so, and therefore I will not be drawn into explaining why I find the analogy so crazy, and am not asking you to explain it further.

I would prefer if the discussion could stay focused on the Martians, so that we can discuss the ethics of a hypothetical scenario that may not be relevant in real life. I am genuinely confused about the ethics of this, and I think this can lead to an interesting question regardless of whether it is applicable to humans)

You can't have it both ways. As a purely hypothetical scenario of no relevance to real life, it is of no interest. As a purely hypothetical scenario of direct analogical relevance to real life, it is of interest to precisely the degree that it is an accurate analogy; but you want to forestall any discussion of its accuracy. You want to talk about PUA without talking about PUA. The thing cannot be done.

The whole posting reminds me of the situation where someone comes to you and says, "Suppose someone did such and such, and acted so and so, and then this and that, wouldn't they be wrong wrong wrong?" and it's clearly a tendentious, self-serving account of some drama they've got into with someone else. They're not looking for advice, they're trying to co-opt you into giving them validation but screening off the actual facts from you.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 08:55:19PM *  11 points [-]

Let me just point out that the post was an attempt to discuss ethics in a hypothetical world where certain PUA claims about human psychology are true. I think this is an important question, and I did not want it to degenerate into a discussion about whether the claims themselves are true.

I tried my best to make the analogy as neutral as possible, by making women the "humans", describing the PUA strategies as having a real harmful effect on women, and generally making their dislike of PUA strategies seem entirely reasonable.

I don't see how the post is tendentious. I don't think the analogy has any obvious ethical solution, and I am genuinely asking people for insight into what the relevant ethics are in this hypothetical world. I don't see how I am leading people to give me validation on my views, because I am not even sure what my views are.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 25 July 2014 07:15:20PM 1 point [-]

I think I get what tickling is supposed to be a metaphor for, but I'm clueless as to what the human and two Martian factions represent.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 07:22:11PM *  4 points [-]

OK, I really would prefer that this discussion stays on the abstract level, but in order to avoid confusion, I will provide a translation of the intended metaphors:

Green Martian = Low Status Male

Blue Martian = High Status Male

Earthling = Female

Tickling = Flirting (Including obnoxious strategies such as "negs" and "kino escalation")

The moderately painful sting of the tentacles of the Green Martian = Creepiness, Social Awkwardness, etc

Experimentation on Earthlings (defined in comments) = Sex

Comment author: Lumifer 25 July 2014 07:10:31PM 3 points [-]

It's not that you need a "full map of the ethical agency", it's that just that your setting precludes any interaction between the Martians and the humans pre-tickling.

I think there is a conflict between you saying "In this society, it is generally accepted that tickling is not something that requires consent" and saying "... long struggled to come up with a coherent ethical theory that determines whether tickling humans is morally acceptable."

Not requiring consent (outside of power structures like government and law enforcement) is generally a sign that there are no pressing ethical issues involved. And in reverse, a lot of ethical issues disappear if the parties can freely signal, discuss, and negotiate the rules and terms of interactions.

The simplest answer to your issue is "Ask before tickling". Another answer is to set up a signaling system where a human can signal that he is open to tickling, does not desire tickling, or is willing to negotiate the terms of tickling. None of that requires an analysis of human ethical dilemmas.

Just allow the involved parties to exchange information pre-action.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 07:17:49PM *  2 points [-]

OK. Good point. I am going to specify that in this thought experiment, tickling is only effective if there is no explicit consent.

Edit: See definition of tickling here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/klx/ethics_in_a_feedback_loop_a_parable/b5ft?context=1#b5ft

Also, note that this is a thought experiment. The point of this comment is not to make a claim about the truth value of the statement "flirting is only effective if there is no explicit consent", but to explore the ethical consequences of a world in which this is true.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 July 2014 05:25:58PM *  6 points [-]

In this society, it is generally accepted that tickling is not something that requires consent.

So, inflicting a "moderate stinging pain" on humans does not require consent..? Can humans, I don't know, not let any Martians approach them? slap away the tentacles? wear ear-guards? Can humans inflict pain on Martians at will, too?

This looks either like a two-tier society with humans being rights-restricted or like some unstable construct which, if magically brought into existence, will immediately evolve towards a different, more stable equilibrium.

The issue I see with that parable is that humans are entirely passive. They are just subjects of tickling -- they have no voice, no opinions, no preferences. All the discussion is about what's ethical for (active) Martians to do to (passive) humans.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 06:06:55PM 4 points [-]

I definitely see the humans as agents, whose preferences are morally relevant. In fact, the reason this is even ethically ambiguous in the first place, is that humans have a preference not to be tickled by green martians.

The reason humans come across as passive, is that I am specifically asking about the ethics of an action that is generally conducted by the active Martian to the passive human. It is at least theoretically possible that this question can be resolved without considering any ethical dilemmas that the humans face. This does not mean that the humans are not considered as important moral agents, only that their agency is not something that has any impact on the ethics of a choice made my Martians.

If you can think of a reason why having a full map of the ethical agency of the human is necessary to resolve the ethics of the choice faced by the Martian, I would be very interested in hearing it and will update accordingly.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 July 2014 04:59:26PM *  11 points [-]

This parable is lacking a key concept: consent.

Are we talking about allowing Martians to tickle humans with or without the human consent? If there is (voluntary, informed) consent I don't see any ethical problems. If there is no consent, I see lots of problems which include the Blue Martians.

Comment author: PeerGynt 25 July 2014 05:09:50PM *  4 points [-]

In this society, it is generally accepted that tickling is not something that requires consent.

Even more than the Martians want to tickle humans, they want to carry them away to their mothership to experiment on them. Everyone agrees that experimentation on humans requires their consent. Part of the socially accepted foreplay that sometimes leads to humans giving their consent to be experimented on, consists of the martian tickling the human behind the ear.

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