Comment author: Alicorn 02 June 2009 04:32:44PM 2 points [-]

At present, the main issue is that we each have important beliefs that we don't think we can share.

Being able to share differing beliefs has more to do with whether you can both remain civil about important things than whether you agree. I regularly and enthusiastically pick apart minute disagreements between myself and my friends, and would feel as though something were lacking if I couldn't - but we can switch topics from politics to polenta when someone gets fed up and there are no hard feelings. If you can't do that with your girlfriend, that indicates a deeper-running incompatibility than merely disagreeing on rationality. Even if you agreed on all the big issues, it would be miraculous for you to make it through life without ever arguing, and being able to argue without it having it destroy your relationship is an essential skill.

Comment author: QuestionTime 02 June 2009 05:42:04PM *  0 points [-]

Let me explain that sentence a bit more. As you know, preference utilitarianism comes with quite a bit of bullet-swallowing and while I may be less hard core than some, I swallow bullets she seems very hesitant to. Perhaps equally or more importantly, like most people, she doesn't seem to like to taste the bullets, i.e. ponder uncomfortable thoughts, accept uncertainty, etc. I, on the other hand, seem to take some perverse pleasure in thinking and talking about such topics. From her perspective, I sometimes "analyze things e.g. a poem, a play, the proper emotional response to situation X, to death to the point of being distracted from their inherent value."

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 02 June 2009 04:24:49PM *  1 point [-]

I think I'm quite rational and have a decent understanding of aspects of rationality that I haven't managed to implement yet. I think karma is a very imperfect measure, but I'll note that I have more than 100 and less than 400.

Huh? Karma on this site primarily shows positive contribution/participation (if you are able to contribute positively), treating it as a "measure of rationality" is a bizarre perspective. Please try to outline your position on the specific questions I suggested, or something of that kind, it's hard to make such a decision in a well-known case, but yet harder to construct fully general advice.

For another example, why do you think it's important to get away from magical thinking? Is it? What is your motivation for thinking about rationality, and for dispelling the other person's confusion? "Compatibility" of worldviews?

Comment author: QuestionTime 02 June 2009 05:08:40PM *  1 point [-]

I would probably give you a response you liked better if I understood why you were asking what you were asking.

Why are you an atheist, (why) do you believe science works...

Because the evidence favors atheism and suggests science leads to truth more often than other approaches to belief formation? I could link to arguments but I don't see the point in trying to explain these things in my own words. Does it help to know that I usually agree with your comments and with the LW consensus, where it exists? Is the implication that the more rational I am, the more of a problem my partners rationality will be?

what is the difference between one person who is actually right and another person who is merely confused, etc.?

I don't think I understand this question.

why do you think it's important to get away from magical thinking? Is it?

I think the importance of getting away from magical thinking varies across people and contexts. I'm not confident I know how important it is, or even whether its helpful, for some people. Its clear that getting away from magical thinking can sometimes help people achieve their personal goals and help make the world a better place.

What is your motivation for thinking about rationality,

I enjoy the process regardless of the consequences. But I also hope that it will help me in my career and help me contribute to the world.

and for dispelling the other person's confusion? "Compatibility" of worldviews?

I think my partner and I both experience some level of discomfort at knowing that our worldviews are in significant conflict, even though this conflict seems to coexist with a high degree of respect for how the accomplishments of the other. It is unfortunate that we basically have to avoid certain topics of conversation that we both find important and that our emotional reaction to things often differs.

You might check my responses to Alicorn to learn more. Once again, thank you very much for responding.

Comment author: Alicorn 02 June 2009 02:53:33PM 7 points [-]

It is possible to make a relationship work in which each party has a role in the general neighborhood of "the rational one" or "the emotional one", as long as the relative places and merits of these roles are acknowledged by both parties. Since you say she's prepared to admit to her mood swings, this may be doable. My proposed checklist:

  • If she suffers from an extended period of depression, is she prepared to address that (therapy, antidepressants, ice cream & sad movies, whatever she finds works for her), or would she let it greatly interfere with her life and your lives together?

  • How averse to your atheism is she? How averse to her (presumable) theism are you? Do you have enough else to talk about and enough ability to skirt the topic that it can avoid being a major point of contention between you? If you want kids eventually, can you come to an agreement about how to raise them re: religion?

  • Does her magical thinking lead her to do anything profoundly instrumentally stupid, or does it mostly just make her sound a little silly occasionally?

  • Can you respect her, as well as love her, in spite of her failures of rationality? Or would you be hoping in the back of your mind forever and always that she'd eventually wise up and be a more rational version of herself that you could respect?

  • Are you compatible on other long-term axes? (Financially, politically, life goals, desire to live in a particular location, opinions on family and homemaking, etc.)

If you can give the "right" answer to all of those questions (I think it should be obvious in each case which answer would be best) then go for it and the best of luck to you. If you can't, you either need to address the situation and fix it, or move on.

Comment author: QuestionTime 02 June 2009 04:16:53PM *  0 points [-]

Alicorn, Thanks for responding - see my "Added" to the original comment.

She seems to take a fairly reasonable approach to dealing with / working around her emotional issues and tries hard not to let me suffer because of them.

The atheism / theism divide could be much worse. I'm not sure her beliefs even have net-negative consequences. At present, the main issue is that we each have important beliefs that we don't think we can share. RE: children, we could probably both accept me having the right to be honest about my beliefs but not pushing them, or going into detail unless they really want to hear it or reached 18.

She doesn't generally do things that are obviously and profoundly instrumentally stupid, but its probably fair to worry about whether she might in the future. She'd need some money to spend on her friends more lavishly than I would, and to give to inefficient charities, but it seems unlikely she'd want to spend more than I could indulge.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 02 June 2009 03:14:47PM 0 points [-]

How strong is your own understanding of rationality? Why are you an atheist, (why) do you believe science works, what is the difference between one person who is actually right and another person who is merely confused, etc.? How smart is she (that is, how easy it'll be to positively apply more confused and complex arguments, not requiring of you great feats of persuasion)?

I'll be interested in what other people think about applying the corpus of Overcoming Bias directly (doesn't seem like a generally good idea to me, requires a person to be of a kind that'll maintain focus for extended period of time).

Comment author: QuestionTime 02 June 2009 03:55:43PM *  -1 points [-]

I think I'm quite rational and have a decent understanding of aspects of rationality that I haven't managed to implement yet. I think karma is a very imperfect measure, but I'll note that I have more than 100 and less than 400.

She is probably one standard deviation above average in terms of IQ, and would score more highly when considering other kinds of intelligence. The main problem in convincing her to think more rationally is emotional resistance.

Thank you for responding - see my "Added" to the original comment.

Comment author: QuestionTime 02 June 2009 02:30:34PM *  7 points [-]

I need relationship advice and I trust the wisdom and honesty of this community more than most of my friends. I created a new account to ask this question.

I'm with an incredibly compassionate, creative woman. She excels at her job, which is a "helping profession," and one which I believe improves social welfare far more than most. The sex is outstanding.

But she loves magical thinking, she is somewhat averse to expected-utility calculations, my atheism, etc. She is, by her own admission, subject to strong swings of emotion and at greater than average risk of longer-lasting depression. We love each other but are scared that our differences may be too great.

How would you personally feel about a relationship like this? How should I go about deciding whether to continue this?

Added: We have been together more than 6 months. She has learned a decent amount about my way of thinking, but I have not pushed it on her. I frequently mention how great rationality is (but also mock myself to make sure we're all having fun).

I wish I had confidence that trying to convert her to my way of thinking would have net-benefits for her and for the world long-term, but I don't. Not that I'm convinced trying to convert her is a bad idea on utilitarian grounds either, it just seems risky.

View more: Prev