Comment author: erratio 06 December 2010 09:20:02PM 7 points [-]

I think your points about why courtesy is better are missing a crucial point; which is that social interaction is all about standardisation.

Consider the old VHS versus Betamax problem (or Blu-ray versus HDD for the modern version): two systems that achieved more or less the same goals, each of which had certain advantages and disadvantages going for it. But inevitably one system became popular and it stopped being economical for manufacturers to keep making both players and media of the other type, because not enough people would have used it. And this is a good thing because it means manufacturers don't have to produce media in both types, which means that the cost for the media that they do produce is slightly lower, and everyone except the die-hard users of the dead format wins.

Methods of social interaction are the same: you need both people who produce a certain kind of interaction and people who welcome those kinds of interactions. Regardless of which is better, the equilibrium point is towards one standard dominating - and the one that does dominate isn't necessarily better, it was just the first to gain critical mass.

That said, my intuition is that politeness is better than not-politeness in most contexts because it allows more plausible deniability. And that intuition is resting on the assumption that most people are highly protective of their status and therefore avoid status hits at all costs, even if that means taking twice as long to get to the point.

Comment author: Relsqui 07 December 2010 05:11:04AM 1 point [-]

Agreed about standardization; knowing what to expect is useful in communication generally. My dad (former pilot) is fond of pointing out that this is how pilots and ATC people understand each other over crackly radios. There's only a small set of possible things they could be saying, and they know what to expect, so they only have to listen for whether the crackly voice matches what they're expecting.

even if that means taking twice as long to get to the point

I still find the time argument odd. The difference doesn't seem like that much to me, and the couple of seconds seem trivial weighed against the social currency you gain by taking them.

Comment author: Perplexed 06 December 2010 10:11:36PM *  8 points [-]

Describe a common situation where there is clearly more utility in stating x bluntly than stating x politely.

Here is a fairly narrow one: when you are correcting someone who has made a serious error which they will immediately recognize as an error when it is pointed out to them.

An example took place earlier here on this thread. Lionhearted had just stated that he would bow out of the discussion now. Wedrifid misread what was written, seeing "I'm bowing out for now", where lionhearted had actually written "I'm bowing out now". Wedrifid responded intemperately, making a particularly big deal of the withdrawal "for now", interpreting it as a kind of threat to return. (This comment has since been deleted by its author.)

I pointed out wedrifid's error bluntly, and was even so discourteous as to tease him on his embarrassing error. I am confident that this was the right way to handle this kind of mistake. Anything softer would have been condescending.

So that is one situation where bluntness strikes me as clearly best. But I'm not sure that this situation generalizes well. If the mistake were less serious (a typo, say) then the superiority of bluntness is debatable. If the mistake were less clearcut, then it would probably be wise to include some justification of the judgment that it really is a mistake.

Comment author: Relsqui 07 December 2010 05:05:19AM 1 point [-]

Anything softer would have been condescending.

Do you find this condescending?

"You seem to have misread his comment--he said 'bowing out now,' not 'for now.'"

If so, can you explain why? Whether you do or not, what significantly worse result would you expect from that response, as opposed to teasing him about it?

Comment author: jimrandomh 06 December 2010 05:14:59PM 1 point [-]

Now that I've seen the issue framed in those terms, I can think of several cases where someone spent so long on niceness-padding that I got annoyed, lost interest, or interrupted to ask them to get to the point. I would like to add that the niceness/efficiency tradeoff is continuous, not discrete, bounded on the maximally-efficient end and unbounded on the maximally-nice end, and that there must be some amount of niceness-padding so excessive that will annoy even those who prefer prefer more of it in general.

Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 08:41:11PM 1 point [-]

Oh, yes, I'll certainly agree with that. Even the examples in the original post were a little too fluffy for my taste, and I'm the one who's a stickler for courtesy. There's certainly a balance to be struck--enough, but no more--which I haven't emphasized enough for how important it is. Thanks for the reminder.

I wonder how much striking that balance is part of the skill of being useful and courteous at the same time.

Comment author: shokwave 06 December 2010 02:36:50PM 2 points [-]

If you're a mapmaker, being purely descriptive rather than prescriptive is the whole point.

Indeed, excellent counter-example. I was wrong to say there is no point in being descriptive.

If you mean that it's definitely more useful for people to behave in the way you prefer, you have not yet convinced me of that.

I am not sure that it is more useful. There appears, to me, to be some correlation between intelligence and blunt communication (nerds speak bluntly, mundanes politely) but that could be intelligence and contrarianism, or any other of many potential factors. I am not giving it any weight. However, I do think it's the case that it is useful for "people who behave in this way" to congregate and continue to behave in this way with each other.

That is, when their value systems are sufficiently similar in relevant areas, I can say that being more polite is an error for them. And LessWrong is one place where the value systems sufficiently coincide.

Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 08:38:58PM 0 points [-]

For calibration purposes, where on that spectrum would you place the conversation we're having right now? :)

Comment author: shokwave 06 December 2010 12:55:04PM 1 point [-]

Well, okay, I think I see something. This post and this comment communicate that people often use arguments to support monolithic beliefs. People might be thinking that the first option you gave earlier is saying "I'm on your side, we need to work together to kill this 'unfeasible' enemy soldier" whereas the second is more like "Your idea is dumb and I will throw arguments at you until you retreat or surrender".

A kind of politeness, then, I could use, encourage, and appreciate when receiving would be an effort to communicate that we both want the outcome, your method has obstacles, can we fix these obstacles or find another route?

Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 01:06:29PM *  0 points [-]

That's exactly it.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 06 December 2010 12:50:21PM 0 points [-]

Thanks. It's an interesting example of balancing the need for clear rules without having so much specificity that it's easy to game.

I found this experiment with requiring non-redundant communication, but nothing about how long it went on or how it worked out in the long run.

Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 01:01:36PM 0 points [-]

It's an interesting example of balancing the need for clear rules without having so much specificity that it's easy to game.

Yeah, that was one of the major goals in the channel rules. Both the long and the short versions are explicit that if you come up with a way to be a pain in the ass that we haven't already thought of, we'll still kick you, even though it's not already in the rules. :P If you're curious, the long version is here and the short version is here. I didn't compose all of them but I did write them. (That is, I didn't choose everything that went in them, but I picked most of the words and put them on a page.)

but nothing about how long it went on or how it worked out in the long run.

It's still going on, in #xkcd-signal on Foonetic. I don't follow the channel actively right now, but my experience when I was there and the channel's continuing reputation are that it has high-quality conversations at very long intervals. That is, it tends to be quiet for long periods, but the conversations that do happen are relatively free of noise.

Comment author: shokwave 06 December 2010 12:00:53PM *  0 points [-]

It's the prescriptive/descriptive divide. When I say it's the wrong understanding, I mean that if I were to prescribe what understandings people ought to have of communication protocols, I would be in error if I prescribed this one. This understanding is worse than another understanding they could have. There doesn't seem to be any point being purely descriptive about anything.

You can play along and be accepted/effective in that culture, or not. It's your choice.

False dilemma. I can agitate for change in that culture.

Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 12:54:43PM 2 points [-]

It's the prescriptive/descriptive divide.

Oh hey, so it is. Well observed. (This is not sarcasm; I actually hadn't noticed.)

ought ... error ... worse

The meaningfulness of these words relies on sharing the relevant parts of a value system, and we haven't come anywhere near establishing that that's the case. If you mean that it's definitely more useful for people to behave in the way you prefer, you have not yet convinced me of that.

There doesn't seem to be any point being purely descriptive about anything.

That depends on the goal, doesn't it? If you're a mapmaker, being purely descriptive rather than prescriptive is the whole point. When I'm setting about to choose my own behavior, I would like to have as good a descriptive map as possible of the way the world is now; if I find a part I dislike, I might then choose a behavior with which I intend to change it, but even while doing that I'm best served by having an accurate description in place.

False dilemma. I can agitate for change in that culture.

Fair point, but as above, it's useful to have a very good understanding of what you're trying to go about changing; and even then, simply contradicting it or behaving as if social norms aren't what they are may not be sufficient to convince anyone of the rightness of your position.

Comment author: shokwave 06 December 2010 11:37:38AM 1 point [-]

It isn't dishonest to say "this is a good idea, but it might be difficult for these reasons" rather than "your idea isn't feasible for these reasons"

Part of my criteria for determining goodness of ideas is feasibility. I would be being dishonest if the idea was not feasible.

Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 12:43:22PM 0 points [-]

Mm, okay, let's put it another way than "good" then. Perhaps: "That's a desireable outcome and your method would work if we had the resources, but we don't."

In response to Radical Honesty
Comment author: dilys 10 September 2007 11:03:17PM 1 point [-]

Crocker's Rules are appealing. That's taking responsibility! As to never lying -- even by selective silence --it would be valuable to have a hair-trigger interior recognition when you want to lie, and figure out whether it is for your sake or for the other person's. First case, tell the truth instead. Second, tread very carefully. But be aware, maybe even creative.

Some scripts for common lies might help. "I don't care." > "It's not something I think about much." "Yes, you look fat in that." > "Look, a shooting star! Here, out the window!" Or, "I always love you in green."

The old guy whose poetry was mediocre? Possible to --pick out your "favorite" line; --write him back one more time, chatty, asking how he's doing; --send him a book on writing poetry, saying something about how good poetry is for the soul, whether or not it is published or famous. The lying the reporter did in that case was to save himself any outlay of human kindness.

I don't like the Blanton guy. I think he shows signs of pumping his endorphins at the expense of other people. But at least he makes us notice how much and how easily we lie, and as such generates some motivation to find ways to be more authentic. (Samuel Johnson to Boswell: "Clear your mind of cant!") At worst he encourages more endorphin addicts, bullies with a self-righteous theory.

In response to comment by dilys on Radical Honesty
Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 12:40:04PM *  1 point [-]

Crocker's Rules are appealing. That's taking responsibility!

Can't you take exactly the same responsibility for your own actions without ever thinking of or mentioning some rules?

ETA: Man, it's frustrating to get downvoted for asking a question. If the question is stupid or the answer is obvious, fine, but I haven't learned anything unless you tell me why.

In response to Radical Honesty
Comment author: Henry_V 10 September 2007 01:13:02PM 5 points [-]

"I wonder what it would be like to have anyone in the world, even a single person, who you could absolutely trust. Or what it would be like for there to be anyone in the world, even a single person, whom you had to tell all your thoughts, without possibility of concealment."

I think Christians have been wondering the same thing for a couple thousand years. Radical honesty and Crocker's Rules aren't exactly new concepts, are they?

Consider Ephesians 4: Speak the truth, but do so in love considering the feelings of others. There's an obnoxious way to be truthful, and a much more fruitful way to be truthful.

"Speak the truth in love" "each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body." "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

In response to comment by Henry_V on Radical Honesty
Comment author: Relsqui 06 December 2010 12:36:12PM 10 points [-]

Buddhism has this idea too. Here's a nicely specific bit from one of the suttas, on how the criteria for "right speech" encompass much more than telling the truth:

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing and disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing and disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing and disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing and agreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing and agreeable to others, he does not say them.

In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing and agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings.

(Emphasis mine.)

View more: Prev | Next