Comment author: PrawnOfFate 17 April 2013 03:34:49PM *  1 point [-]

In the context of the mind-body problem, the contentious claim of emergentists is that mental properties can;t be reduced to physical properties in principal. There could be any number of in practice problems involved in understanding complex systems in terms of their parts. No actual reductionists think that all sciences should be replaced by particle physics, because they understand these in-practice problems. The contentiousness is all about the in-principle issues.

Comment author: RogerS 17 April 2013 10:43:11PM 0 points [-]

Reducing to "physical properties" is not necessarily the same as to "the physical properties of the ingredients". I would have thought physicalists think mental properties can be reduced to physical properties, but reductionists identify these with the physical properties of the ingredients. I suppose one way of looking at it is that when you say "in principle" the principles you refer to are physical principles, whereas when emergentists see obstacles as present "in principle" when certain kinds of complexity are present they are more properly described as mathematical principles.

Mental events can certainly be reduced to physical events, but I would take mental properties to be the properties of the set of all possible such events, and the possibility of connecting these to the properties of the brain's ingredients even in principle is certainly not self-evident.

Comment author: PrawnOfFate 17 April 2013 01:12:33PM *  0 points [-]

At this point it is important to distinguish “Mind theory” from other fields where Reductionism is debated. In this field, Reductionists apparently regard Emergentism as a form of disguised Vitalism/Dualism - if emergent properties can’t be explained by the physical ingredients, they must exist in some non-physical realm.

Standard philosophical emergentism is explicitly a form of dualism..

"As a theory of mind (which it is not always), emergentism differs from idealism, eliminative materialism, identity theories, neutral monism, panpsychism, and substance dualism, whilst being closely associated with property dualism. " (WP)

..but standard emergentism has a clause that rogerS omits: emergent properties aren't just higher-level properties not had by their consitutents, they are higher-level properties which cannot be explanatorily reduced to their constituents.

However, Emergentism can apply equally well to everything from chess playing programs to gearbox vibrations, neither of which involve anything like mysterious spiritual substances, so this can hardly be the whole story.

"Emergentism" can only be applied to gearboxes if the irreducbility clause is dropped. The high-level behaviour of a mechanism is always reducible to its the behaviour of its parts, because a mechanism is built up out of parts, and reduction is therefore, literally, reverse engineering.

But being able to offer an uncontentious definition of emergentism does not prove there is nothing contentious about it. It's a kind of inverted straw man.

Comment author: RogerS 17 April 2013 10:08:59PM 0 points [-]

"As a theory of mind (which it is not always), emergentism differs from idealism, eliminative materialism, identity theories, neutral monism, panpsychism, and substance dualism, whilst being closely associated with property dualism. " (WP)

As a theory exclusively of the mind, I can see that emergentism has implications like property dualism, but not as a theory that treats the brain just as a very complex system with similar issues to other complex systems.

Comment author: PrawnOfFate 16 April 2013 07:02:49PM 0 points [-]

To answer more fully: The 'monist' model without information as a category describes reality at any instant but does not describe what is conserved from one instant to the next.

If you mean infromation, it is not clear that that is conserved. And I don't see how a sufficiently detailed description of reality at the quark level could fail to describe all the information.

Comment author: RogerS 17 April 2013 03:44:03PM 0 points [-]

OK, not strictly "conserved", except that I understand quantum mechanics requires that the information in the universe must be conserved. But what I meant is that if you download a file to a different medium and then delete the original, the information is still the same although the descriptions at quark level are utterly different. Thus there is a sense in which a quark level description of reality fails to capture an important fact about it (the identity of the two files in information terms).

I don't think this has anything to do with dualism in the Cartesian sense, it's just an example of my general preference for not taking metaphysical positions without reference to the context. I'm afraid I don't know the label for that!

Comment author: PrawnOfFate 17 April 2013 01:12:33PM *  0 points [-]

At this point it is important to distinguish “Mind theory” from other fields where Reductionism is debated. In this field, Reductionists apparently regard Emergentism as a form of disguised Vitalism/Dualism - if emergent properties can’t be explained by the physical ingredients, they must exist in some non-physical realm.

Standard philosophical emergentism is explicitly a form of dualism..

"As a theory of mind (which it is not always), emergentism differs from idealism, eliminative materialism, identity theories, neutral monism, panpsychism, and substance dualism, whilst being closely associated with property dualism. " (WP)

..but standard emergentism has a clause that rogerS omits: emergent properties aren't just higher-level properties not had by their consitutents, they are higher-level properties which cannot be explanatorily reduced to their constituents.

However, Emergentism can apply equally well to everything from chess playing programs to gearbox vibrations, neither of which involve anything like mysterious spiritual substances, so this can hardly be the whole story.

"Emergentism" can only be applied to gearboxes if the irreducbility clause is dropped. The high-level behaviour of a mechanism is always reducible to its the behaviour of its parts, because a mechanism is built up out of parts, and reduction is therefore, literally, reverse engineering.

But being able to offer an uncontentious definition of emergentism does not prove there is nothing contentious about it. It's a kind of inverted straw man.

Comment author: RogerS 17 April 2013 03:25:32PM 0 points [-]

"Emergentism" can only be applied to gearboxes if the irreducibility clause is dropped. The high-level behaviour of a mechanism is always reducible to its the behaviour of its parts.

My point is that depends if by "behaviour" you mean "the characteristics of a single solution" or "the characteristics of solution space". In the latter case the meaning of "reduction" doesn't seem unambiguous to me.

The practical debate I have in mind is whether multibody dynamics can answer practical questions about the behaviour of gearboxes under conditions of stochastic or transient excitation with backlash taken into account, the point being that the solution space in such an application can be very large.

Comment author: TimS 16 April 2013 01:44:11AM 3 points [-]

The problem with the label "emergence" isn't that the phenomena does not occur. The problem is when people use the label "emergence" as a semantic stop sign, ending attempts at further explanation.

Airplanes flying through the air are an emergent property of quantum mechanics. That sentence standing alone tells you nothing useful about airplanes or quantum mechanics.


Also, discussion posts don't use Markdown. (I think they use HTML, but don't quote me).

Comment author: RogerS 17 April 2013 03:11:44PM 0 points [-]

The problem is when people use the label "emergence" as a semantic stop sign

Agreed, which is why I was trying to replace it by a "proceed with caution" sign with some specific directions.


One lives & learns - thanks.

The real difference between Reductionism and Emergentism

2 RogerS 15 April 2013 10:09PM

After trying to discover why the LW wiki “definition” of Reductionism appeared so biased, I concluded from the responses that it was never really intended as a definition of the Reductionist position itself, but as a summary of what is considered to be wrong with positions critical of Reductionism.

The argument goes like this. “Emergentism”, as the critical view is often called, points out the properties that emerge from a system when it is assembled from its elements, which do not themselves show such a property. From such considerations it points out various ways in which research programmes based on a reductionist approach may distort priorities and underestimate difficulties. So far, this is all a matter of degree and eventually each case must be settled on its merits. However, it gets philosophically sensitive when Emergentists claim that a Reductionist approach may be unable in principle to 'explain' certain emergent properties.

The reponse to this claim (I think) goes like this. (1) The explanatory power of a model is a function of its ingredients. (2) Reductionism includes all the ingredients that actually exist in the real world. Therefore (3) Emergentists must be treating the “emergent properties” as extra ingredients, thereby confusing the “map” with the “territory”. So Reductionism is defined by EY and others as not treating emergent properties as extra ingredients (in effect).

At this point it is important to distinguish “Mind theory” from other fields where Reductionism is debated. In this field, Reductionists apparently regard Emergentism as a form of disguised Vitalism/Dualism - if emergent properties can’t be explained by the physical ingredients, they must exist in some non-physical realm. However, Emergentism can apply equally well to everything from chess playing programs to gearbox vibrations, neither of which involve anything like mysterious spiritual substances, so this can hardly be the whole story. And in fact I would argue that the reverse is the case: Vitalists or “substance Dualists” are actually unconscious Reductionists as well: when they assume an extra ingredient is necessary to account for the things which they believe Physicalism cannot explain, they are still reducing a system to its ingredients. Emergentists by contrast reject premise (1) of the previous paragraph, that the explanatory power of a model is a function of its ingredients. Thus it seems to me that the real difference between Reductionists & Emergentists is a difference over the nature of explanation. So it seems worthwhile looking into some of the different things that can be meant by “explanation”.

For simplicity, let us illustrate this by the banal example of a brickwork bridge. The elements are the bricks and their relative positions. Our reductionist R points out that these are the only elements you need - after all, if you remove all the bricks there is nothing left - and so proposes to become an expert in bricks. Our (Physicalist) Emergentist E suggests that this won’t be of much use without a knowledge of the Arch (an emergent feature). R isn't stupid and agrees that this would be extremely useful but points out that if no expert in Arch Theory is to hand, given the very powerful computer available, such expertise isn’t strictly necessary: it's not an inherent requirement. Simply solving the force balance equations for each brick will establish whether a given structure will fall into the river. Isn’t that an explanation?

Not in my sense, says E, as to start with it doesn’t tell me how the bridge will be designed, only how an existing design will be analysed. So R explains that the computer will generate structures randomly until one is found that satisfies the requirements of equilibrium. When E enquires how stability will be checked. R replies that the force balance will be checked under all possible small deviations from the design position.

E isn’t satisfied. To claim understanding, R must be able to apply the results of the first design to new bridges of different span, but all (s)he can do is repeat the process again every time.

On the contrary, replies R, this being the age of Big Data, the computer can generate solutions in a large number of cases and then use pattern recognition software to extract rules that can be applied to new cases.

Ah, says E, but explaining these rules means hypothesing more general rules from which these rules can be derived, using appropriate Bayesian reasoning to confirm your hypothesis.

OK, replies R, my program has a heuristic feature that has passed the Turing Test. So anything you can do along these lines, it can do just as well.

So using R’s approach, explanation even in E’s most general sense can always be arrived at by a four-stage process: (1) construct a model using the basic elements applicable to the situation, (2) fill a substantial chunk of solution space, (3) use pattern recognition to extract pragmatic rules, (4) use hypothesis generation and testing to derive general principles from the rules. It may be a trivial illustration, but it seems to me that in a broad sense this sort of process must be applicable in almost any situation.

How should we interpret this conclusion? R would say that it proves that “explanation” can be arrived it using a Reductionist model. E would say it proves the inadequacy of Reductionism, since Reductionist steps (1) & (2) have to be supplemented by Integrationist steps (3) & (4): the rules found at step (3) are precisely “emergent features” of the solution space. Moreover, pattern recognition is not a closed-form process with repeatable results. (Is it?) On the other hand the patterns identified in solution space might well be derivable in closed form directly from higher-level characteristics of the system in question (such as constraints in the system).

I would say that the choice of interpretation is a matter of convention, though I own up that I find the Emergentist mind-set more helpful in the fields I have learnt something about. What really matters is a recognition of the huge difference between “providing a solution” and “generalising from solution space” as types of explanation. The “Emergentist” label is a reminder of that difference. But call yourself a “Reductionist” if you like so long as you acknowledge the difference.

It seems to me that the sort of argument sketched here provides useful pointers to help recognize when “Reductionism” becomes “Greedy Reductionism”(A). For example, consider the claim that mapping the Human Connectome will enable the workings of the brain to be explained. Clearly, the mapping is just step (1). Consider the size of the Connectome, and then consider the size of the solution space of its activity. That makes step (1) sound utterly trivial compared with step (2). This leaves the magnitude of steps (3) & (4) to be evaluated. That doesn’t mean the project won’t be extremely valuable, but it puts the time-frame of the claim to provide real “understanding” into a very different light, and underlines the continued value of working at other scales as well.

(A): See e.g. fubarobfusco's comment on my earlier discussion.

In response to Logical Pinpointing
Comment author: RogerS 14 April 2013 03:49:17PM *  1 point [-]

The boundary between physical causality and logical or mathematical implication doesn’t always seem to be clearcut. Take two examples.

(1) The product of two and an integer is an even integer. So if I double an integer I will find that the result is even. The first statement is clearly a timeless mathematical implication. But by recasting the equation as a procedure I introduce both an implied separation in time between action and outcome, and an implied physical embodiment that could be subject to error or interruption. Thus the truth of the second formulation strictly depends on both a mathematical fact and physical facts.

(2) The endpoint of a physical process is causally related to the initial conditions by the physical laws governing the process. The sensitivity of the endpoint to the initial conditions is a quite separate physical fact, but requires no new physical laws: it is a mathematical implication of the physical laws already noted. Again, the relationship depends on both physical and mathematical truths.

Is there a recognized name for such hybrid cases? They could perhaps be described as “quasi-causal” relationships.

Comment author: MugaSofer 10 April 2013 02:48:32PM *  1 point [-]

EG: an ancestral hunter-gatherer tribal group; a group of castaways on an island, the remainder being young children; an encounter with aliens; in a group defending ones family against an evil oppressor; etc. etc. Likewise, imagine being in the shoes of somebody with very different aptitudes and personality. The things that remain constant - the things that tell us how to deal with all these different cases - are our terminal values. (Or rather, they would be if we could only eliminate self-deception.)

Excellent suggestion.

I would like to add "Nazi"to that list, and note that if you imagine doing something other than the historical results (in those cases where we know the historical result) you're doing this wrong.

EDIT: reading this over, it sounds kinda sarcastic. Just want to clarify I'm being sincere here.

Comment author: RogerS 11 April 2013 10:44:31AM *  3 points [-]

Yes indeed, it is a challenge to understand how the same human moral functionality "F" can result in a very different value system "M" to ones own, though I suspect a lot of historical reading would be necessary to fully understand the Nazi's construction of the social world - "S", in my shorthand. A contemporary example of the same challenge is the cultures that practice female genital mutilation. You don't have to agree with a construction of the world to begin to see how it results in the avowed values that emerge from it, but you do have to be able to picture it properly. In both cases, this challenge has to be distinguished from the somewhat easier task of explaining the origins of the value system concerned.

Comment author: MugaSofer 08 April 2013 12:02:49AM 1 point [-]

Since then I've been looking around and it feels... feels like I've finally found my species after a lifetime among aliens. I have heartily agreed with everything I've seen Eliezer write (so far), which I suspect is almost as unusual to him as it is to me. It's simply relieving to see minds working properly.

Know that feeling. I wonder how common a reaction it is, actually ...

Comment author: RogerS 10 April 2013 11:56:29AM 5 points [-]

Maybe it's just that EY is very persuasive! I'm reminded of what was said about some other polymath (Arthur Koestler I think) that the critics were agreed that he was right on almost everything - except, of course, for the topic that the critic concerned was expert in, where he was completely wrong!

So my problem is, whether to just read the sequences, or to skim through all the responses as well. The latter takes an awful lot longer, but from what I've seen so far there's often a response from some expert in the field concerned that, at the least, puts the post into a whole different perspective.

Comment author: RogerS 10 April 2013 08:49:44AM 5 points [-]

Confidence in moral judgments is never a sound criterion for them being "terminal", it seems to me.

To see why, consider that ones working values are unavoidably a function of two related things: one's picture of oneself, and of the social world. Thus, confident judgments are likely to reflect confidence in relevant parts of these pictures, rather than the shape of the function. To take your example, your adverse judgement of authority could have been a reflection of a confident picture of your ideal self as not being submissive, and of human society at its current state of development as being capable of operating without authority (doubtless oversimplifying greatly, but I hope you get the idea).

A crude mathematical model may help. If M is a vector of your moral values, and S and I is your understanding of society and personal construct respectively, then I am suggesting M = F(S, I). Then the problem is that "terminal values" as I understand them reside in F, but it is only M that is directly accessible to introspection. It is extremely difficult to imagine away the effect of S and I, but one way of making progress should be to vary S & I. That is, try hard to imagine being in an utterly different social context to the one we know. EG: an ancestral hunter-gatherer tribal group; a group of castaways on an island, the remainder being young children; an encounter with aliens; in a group defending ones family against an evil oppressor; etc. etc. Likewise, imagine being in the shoes of somebody with very different aptitudes and personality. The things that remain constant - the things that tell us how to deal with all these different cases - are our terminal values. (Or rather, they would be if we could only eliminate self-deception.)

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