Comment author: wedrifid 06 March 2011 02:39:10AM 0 points [-]

I'm not trying to convince you to like hip-hop. I'm trying to point out the aesthetic that is there, that I like.

I understand, and you do a good job of explaining.

Hip-hop artists do it way better than my silly off-the-cuff example, but I think I got the Fibonacci-vs-Cartesian feel close enough to hear.

Even your efforts here feel somewhat more coherent than the poem and give a good indication of the aesthetic. I can see how it expresses the kind of cultural theme and attitude of those with whom it is most popular. Without, of course, needing to find either the cultural attitude or the style of expression even remotely appealing to me. Which is of course part of the point of music. It is an effective signal and screen to filter us into subcultures and identities that most suit our personality.

The content serves a similar purpose. I'm really not a 'humans, transhumanism, yay!' type so the poem wouldn't be for me even if it had wedrifid compatible styling.

Comment author: SRStarin 06 March 2011 02:51:26AM 1 point [-]

I think I grok you, wedrifid. I agree on the content valence.

I respond now only to say that the poem may be appreciable in ways other than my feeling like it's sort of like hip-hop. I find myself the first totally positive critic here, but seriously, Swimmer, you have something there, if you want to do something with it. I'm just trying to offer my point of view.

Comment author: wedrifid 06 March 2011 01:08:41AM *  0 points [-]

Hip-hop savors the sudden surprise stress, the in-line rhyme, the timing that makes you think "Why did that series of stressed S'es sound so fine?" Sublime.

I don't especially like hip hop - mostly because the content is usually unappealing (and content matters to me more than to most). But this quote doesn't have the problems that the OP has. It mostly sounded catchy. Except the timing of the middle part feels a little bad to me because the phrases before and after prompt an expectation lyrical flow that isn't maintained. If that is a part of hip-hop then I don't like that either. :)

Comment author: SRStarin 06 March 2011 02:15:43AM 2 points [-]

The abrupt interruption of lyrical flow is part of hip-hop. BBut, in exchange for that break, you get a rhyme structure that is far more complex than any usual lyrical poetry can deliver. To use my example, lyrical poetry could never present the LINE RHYME TIMing WHY FINE subLIME rhyming pattern with an offbeat. Instead of rhyming along a ruler, they rhyme along a parabola. I'm not trying to convince you to like hip-hop. I'm trying to point out the aesthetic that is there, that I like. Hip-hop artists do it way better than my silly off-the-cuff example, but I think I got the Fibonacci-vs-Cartesian feel close enough to hear.

Comment author: wedrifid 06 March 2011 12:50:20AM 3 points [-]

imAGine the FIRST MAN who HELD a STICK in ROUGH HANDS and DREW LINES on a COLD STONE WALL imAGine when the OTHers LOOKED when they SAID i see the ANtelope i SEE it

That emphasis feels outright unpleasant to read (and so did the OP). Whatever this style of poetry is it is definitely not calibrated for my kind of brain. ick.

Comment author: SRStarin 06 March 2011 01:00:32AM 1 point [-]

I like hip-hop. I look at this after what I wrote and think "This may be like hip-hop." Maybe that's where our tastes part ways.

Hip-hop savors the sudden surprise stress, the in-line rhyme, the timing that makes you think "Why did that series of stressed S'es sound so fine?" Sublime.

In response to A Transhumanist Poem
Comment author: jimrandomh 05 March 2011 02:52:23PM *  2 points [-]

This doesn't have a consistent number of syllables per line or a consistent stress pattern. Try rewriting it so that each line has exactly 8 syllables, and the syllables alternate between unstressed and stressed. This makes some words unavailable, like silicon (stressed-unstressed-unstressed), and limits which pairs of words can be next to each other ("rough hands" and "stone wall" both put stressed syllables next to each other), but will make it flow better and sound more like a poem, as opposed to prose-with-linefeeds. You might need to practice tagging the syllables of some existing poems to get the hang of distinguishing syllable types. And no, affirming a great truth does not make good poetry.

(Edit: The link was missing due to incorrect Markdown formatting)

Comment author: SRStarin 05 March 2011 07:47:44PM *  4 points [-]

If everything were iambic tetrameter, as you suggest, poetry would be really, really boring. The first stanza has excellent rhythm, placing emphasis on important words, and causing you to place emphasis on words where in normal spoken prose you might not otherwise, enhancing the imagery. imAGine the FIRST MAN who HELD a STICK in ROUGH HANDS and DREW LINES on a COLD STONE WALL imAGine when the OTHers LOOKED when they SAID i see the ANtelope i SEE it

Swimmer963, I think the first stanza makes an excellent poem, whether or not you agree with the way I would read it. The rest could use some work, IMHO, but there's good imagery throughout. My best poems have always been the ones where I don't try to make a point on the first go round, but let the point come out upon rereading.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 04 March 2011 12:19:47AM *  1 point [-]

I should note that I changed the translation here from the Harcourt & Brace translation I have, substituting "hell" for "inferno."

Out of curiosity, why did you make that change?

Comment author: SRStarin 04 March 2011 01:47:09AM 4 points [-]

The Italian word for "hell" is "inferno." (I don't know Italian, but I knew that word.) That's also the Italian word for "inferno," and that was the choice of the translator in 1974. I suspect that was prudishness about the word "hell" for an American audience, but I don't know. Anyway, the passage is otherwise very much in keeping with the tradition of the French Existentialists. For example, Sartre famously wrote "L'enfer, c'est les autres," which translates as "Hell is other people." The book has other existentialist themes in some of its fables, so I conclude that Calvino was thinking about the existentialists that wrote before he, and that he meant "hell" when he wrote "inferno" in Italian. I could be wrong, but that's why I pointed it out.

Comment author: SRStarin 03 March 2011 05:47:57PM *  7 points [-]

"The hell of the living is not something that will be; if there is one, it is what is already here, the hell where we live every day, that we form by being together. There are two ways to escape suffering it. The first is easy for many: accept the hell and become such a part of it that you can never see it. The second is risky and demands constant vigilance and apprehension: seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the hell, are not hell, then make them endure, give them space." -- Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities

This is the last paragraph of the book. I should note that I changed the translation here from the Harcourt & Brace translation I have, substituting "hell" for "inferno." I recommend the book to any rationalist with a taste for fables.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 03 March 2011 06:19:16AM 1 point [-]

Rich may well be generalizing from one example. On the other hand, people do affect each other quite a bit.

Comment author: SRStarin 03 March 2011 01:44:01PM 11 points [-]

As I read this quote, I was reminded of what it felt like to be (repressed) homosexual in a strongly heteronormative culture. The act of claiming my sexuality could only happen outside of that culture (in Europe, for me), and when I came back home, I became profoundly depressed, convinced I would never amount to anything.

Gay people are often surprised at how their internal turmoil, which seems so particular and special, turns out to be the usual result of growing up queer in a straight society. We're surprised because our experience is so different from what most people around us seem to be feeling.

So, I would say Rich was not generalizing from one example, but was talking about the generality of the experience of the ignored minority, and trying to convey that experience to an audience who would be largely ignorant of that feeling of psychic non-existence. They have been affirmed by whatever presumptions are prevalent in their society, be they heteronormative, ethnic, racial, religious or whatever.

So, this is a great rationality quote, because it reminds us all (gay people included) to challenge ourselves constantly to recognize the lenses through which we understand reality, and to try to sort out what is real from what is cultural. People, especially young people, kill themselves because of this. Challenging our cultural assumptions can save lives.

In response to comment by SRStarin on Ability to react
Comment author: JGWeissman 28 February 2011 07:21:52PM 2 points [-]

Hmm, I have certainly seen really excellent dress rehearsals followed by shabby opening nights. And if we do fantastically on the opening night, we often do a little less well (though still usually a good show) the next night. People get lax and allow themselves to be distracted by other things.

Might this be regression to the mean? Following a particularly good performance, the majority of possible performances are not as good as the particularly good preceding performance. See also the Sports Illustrated Cover Jinx. (I vaguely recall reading about this quite some time ago from a source that went into more depth than the Wiki article, not sure where though.)

Comment author: SRStarin 01 March 2011 04:48:21PM 0 points [-]

For activities like competitive sports or extemporaneous acting, I could see what you're saying. But, I don't think that the quality of different performances of a given show, in which the actions are the same each performance, would be scattered in a Gaussian or other randomized way. A performer generally expects only to improve on a particular show, as long as one applies oneself, as will have been happening during the rehearsal period leading up to the performances. If there is a reduction in performance quality on a given show, either the performers are not applying themselves with the same intensity (as I suggested), or there is some other explanation.

Now, if you compared performance quality across different shows and different seasons, you might see something more like a random scattering around a mean.

In response to comment by SRStarin on Ability to react
Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 February 2011 06:07:27PM 3 points [-]

We say this a lot in amateur theatre, too.

That said, I'm 95% confident that we say it as a way of not letting ourselves be discouraged by rocky dress rehearsals, not because it's actually true. After all, it's not like we worry that our second-night performance will be sabotaged by a good opening night.

Comment author: SRStarin 28 February 2011 07:09:34PM *  0 points [-]

Hmm, I have certainly seen really excellent dress rehearsals followed by shabby opening nights. And if we do fantastically on the opening night, we often do a little less well (though still usually a good show) the next night. People get lax and allow themselves to be distracted by other things.

All that said, your experience is different, and I acknowledge that. I may be suffering from confirmation bias, but I don't think so for the group I sing with. It may also be that, in theater, you are far more likely to be noticed if you make a mistake, whereas in choral music you can often be covered by the rest of your section.

In response to comment by SRStarin on Ability to react
Comment author: Swimmer963 27 February 2011 03:26:41PM 0 points [-]

The only sport I was ever deeply involved in was competitive swimming, which is a) an individual and not a team sport, and b) ALWAYS involves the maximum physical effort for the duration of a race. The pre-race adrenaline rush seemed to help a lot of people to go faster, but not me; I was the same speed in competition as in practice. I did experience nervousness before a race, but more on a psychological than a physiological level. I would feel a sense of doom, but my heart rate wouldn't go up much.

Interesting, what you're saying about eustress/distress. I suppose maybe you need a certain level of sympathetic nervous system activation in order to be focused on outside events in real-time. This is what I noticed at a recent lifeguard team competition; I wasn't nervous and I didn't feel pressured to do well, and my performance fell drastically! Maybe next time I won't be so irritated by the pre-competition butterflies, since apparently they serve a purpose.

Comment author: SRStarin 27 February 2011 05:39:37PM 0 points [-]

In amateur choral singing and musicals, we often say that a smooth dress rehearsal is bad news, because you get a sense of complacent confidence. It makes it harder to focus, because you have to do so consciously. We prefer for things to be rough the night before the performance, because we all go to sleep a little nervous, our bodies and unconscious thoughts focusing our conscious minds on the things we need to get right that weren't automatic in the rough rehearsal.

I imagine professionals have less of a problem with this, since they perform much more often, but I don't know.

Our cognitive processes use energy and biochemicals that must be replenished with food and sleep. So, there's no way the brain can be at 100% all the time. Anxiety, epitomized in the fight-or-flight response, allow us to call up full faculties for a short period of time whenever it's needed.

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