In response to Closet survey #1
Comment author: MichaelBishop 15 March 2009 05:59:30PM *  6 points [-]

I believe that some improvements in rationality have negative consequences which outweigh their positive ones.

That said, it might be easy to make too much of this. I agree that, on average, marginal improvements in rationality lead to far superior outcomes for individuals and society.

Comment author: Sengachi 13 January 2013 06:48:43PM 1 point [-]

Could you give an example of such a negative consequence?

In response to Closet survey #1
Comment author: CronoDAS 14 March 2009 11:07:01PM 47 points [-]

Here's something else I can't normally say in public:

Infants are not people because they do not have significant mental capacities. They should be given the same moral status as, say, dogs. It's acceptable to euthanize one's pet dog for many reasons, so it should be okay to kill a newborn for similar reasons.

In other words, the right to an abortion shouldn't end after the baby is born. Infants probably become more like people than like dogs some time around two years of age, so it should be acceptable to euthanize any infant less than two years old under any circumstances in which it would be acceptable to euthanize a dog.

In response to comment by CronoDAS on Closet survey #1
Comment author: Sengachi 13 January 2013 06:34:38PM 1 point [-]

There have been several studies indicating that the neocortex is the part of the brain responsible for self-awareness. People with a lesion on the Visual 1 section of their cortex are "blind" but if you toss a ball at them they'll catch it. And if you have them walk through an obstacle-laden hallway, they'll avoid all obstacles, but be completely unaware of having done so. They can see, but are unaware of their own sight. So I would say the point at which a baby cannot be euthanized is dependent on the state of their neocortex. Further study needs to be done to determine that point, but I would say by two years old the neocortex is highly developed.

Comment author: JulianMorrison 16 March 2009 09:26:51AM *  18 points [-]

The babyeater question would be substantially changed if the children didn't mind being eaten and didn't take harm by it - more or less from a moral crusade into parochial squeamishness. Eliezer went a long way out of his way to avoid that in the story, but here we can't dodge it with a rhetorical flourish.

If as it turns out, kids enjoy consensual sex and take no harm by it, on what basis can society consider it wrong? There has to be a reason. Societies can't just create moral crimes by their say-so.

Edit in Feb 2013: I've come to the conclusion that the problem with the above is that children are in an extremely steep power relationship - an artefact of this society, and it's avoidable, but it can't be wished away without a huge job of dismantling. Meaning, that right now children can't even express a preference. "Yes" is meaningless with the ability of an adult to apply pressure that would count as felony kidnapping and torture if done to another adult, with complete impunity and even acclaim. "No" is meaningless when adults have imposed their schemas of asexual innocence willy-nilly over children's experience, and when they have such huge control of that experience itself, up to and including maintaining "big lies" via censorship.

As such, an age of consent is a damn dirty hack that acknowledges the completely untenable position of children in making a decision that's true to their intent, while refusing to rescue them from it. It is marginally better than nothing. If it does go, it can't go first. A lot of rescuing needs to come first.

Comment author: Sengachi 13 January 2013 06:20:12PM 3 points [-]

This is the crux of every modern dissent to old-age prejudices: If it harms no one, it's not a moral wrong.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 15 March 2009 10:40:28AM 16 points [-]

Personally, there's a certain fetish that I have, and I remember it causing me erections even before puberty. However, as far as I can recall, the experience didn't feel like anything that I'd call sexual these days. It was something that was pleasant to think about, and it caused physical reactions, but the actual sexual tension wasn't there.

I also recall a friend mentioning a pre-pubescent boy who'd had a habit of masturbating when there was snow outside, because he thought the snow was beautiful. (I'm not sure if she'd known the boy herself or if she'd heard it from someone else, so this may be an unreliable fifth-hand account.) If it was true, then it sounds (like my experience) that part of the hardware was in place, but not the parts that would make it sexual in the adult sense of the word.

Googling for "child sexuality" gives me a report from Linköping University which states on page 17:

The staff caring for 251 children aged two to six of both sexes observed the children’s behaviour and then answered a questionnaire on the behaviours they had observed. ... A total of 6% of the children had at some time been seen to masturbate and this usually occurred during rests. Masturbation took place “often/daily” in only 2% of the children. In almost every case the staff judged the masturbation to be associated with desire and relaxation on the part of the child and not in any case as painful, while one child was considered to masturbate compulsively.

It does, however, also remark that child sexual abuse often causes sexualized behavior in children, and that very little is known about what is actually normal child sexuality. Interestingly, as it relates to the original topic, it also mentions a study that found one third of abuse victims to show no symptoms at all.

Comment author: Sengachi 13 January 2013 06:06:07PM 2 points [-]

From personal experience (which I am unfortunately too nervous about to go into detail about), pre-pubescent sexuality is primarily based on exposure and knowledge of sexuality. Puberty simply forces one to become aware of sex, rather than being a prerequisite for it. Similarly, sexual reactions (erections, orgasm, etc.) are definitely possible pre-pubescence, simply different. This may be an anomaly in my case, I do not have any non-personal data to share.

Although I do know that Alfred Kinsey compiled an extensive body of research on child sexuality obtained from the interview of pedophiles, in particular one pedophile who was highly active and documented his explorations extensively. I have never read this body of research myself, but I thought its existence might be worth pointing out.

Comment author: simplicio 07 January 2013 08:48:56PM 2 points [-]

Suppose that at time t the world is in a state Wt, and that the agent may look at it and make an observation Ot. Objectively, the surprise of this observation would be Sobj = S(Ot|Wt) = -log Pr(Ot|Wt).

One note on philosophy of probability: if the world is in state Wt, what does it mean to say that an observation Ot has some probability given Wt? Surely all observations have probability 1 if the state of the world is exhaustively known.

Comment author: Sengachi 12 January 2013 01:22:51AM 1 point [-]

Read Eliezer's http://lesswrong.com/lw/oj/probability_is_in_the_mind/ , I think it will answer your questions on this topic.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 January 2013 02:29:53PM 4 points [-]

The only ones to love a martyr's actions are those who did not love them.

That isn't true. If I love someone and they martyr themselves (literally or figuratively) in a way that is the unambiguously and overwhelmingly optimal way to fulfill both their volition and my own then I will love the martyr's actions. If you say I do not love the martyr or do not love their actions due to some generalization then you are just wrong.

Comment author: Sengachi 06 January 2013 10:15:38AM 0 points [-]

Ding, rationalist level up!

Unfortunately, most people don't view things this way. I figured that so long as we were discussing a show based on how humans try to rationalize away and fight against the truly rational optimum, I might as well throw out a comment on how such people react to truly rational optimizers (martyrs).

Comment author: RobinZ 05 January 2013 04:58:19AM 2 points [-]

Does that work? I don't know enough physics to tell if that makes sense.

Comment author: Sengachi 06 January 2013 10:11:10AM 4 points [-]

It doesn't give you all the information you need, but that's how the problem was originally tackled. Scientists noticed that they had two contradictory models for light, which had a few overlapping characteristics. Those overlapping areas allowed them to start formulating new theories. Of course it took ridiculous amounts of work after that to figure out a reasonable approximation of reality, but one has to start somewhere.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 January 2013 09:11:53PM 6 points [-]

For you, I'll walk this endless maze...

Comment author: Sengachi 04 January 2013 08:08:48AM 1 point [-]

The only ones to love a martyr's actions are those who did not love them.

Comment author: RobinZ 03 January 2013 09:38:44PM 7 points [-]

Is there a concrete example of a problem approached thus?

Comment author: Sengachi 04 January 2013 07:44:41AM 4 points [-]

Viewing the interactions of photons as both a wave and a billiard ball. Both are wrong, but by seeing which traits remain constant in all models, we can project what traits the true model is likely to have.

In response to comment by [deleted] on By Which It May Be Judged
Comment author: nshepperd 10 December 2012 03:47:19PM 3 points [-]

Indeed. However, a) betterness is obviously better than clippiness, and b) if dspeyer is anything like a typical human being, the implicit question behind "is there an asymmetry?" was "is one of them better?"

Comment author: Sengachi 21 December 2012 08:45:13AM 1 point [-]

And clippiness is obviously more clipperific. That doesn't actually answer the question.

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