In response to comment by Shalmanese on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: RichardKennaway 15 December 2009 06:39:45PM 1 point [-]

Better minds that I have talked about the quest for purpose in the absense of faith and I choose deliberately not to endorse any particular moral goal in this piece.

But you did. You said that people should fight against the moral impulse to do good to strangers at their own expense, and strive to ignore their moral revulsion at ill-treating strangers.

selfish utilitarianism (is this really any different from hedonism?) is a good a goal as any although it's not one I personally choose as a moral end goal.

You are advocating it, but not choosing to follow it yourself?

Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 07:20:06PM 1 point [-]

The first person who understood nutrition didn't start on a perfect diet from day 1. Dieting is hard and we're still not very much closer to figuring out effective strategies of subverting our harmful evolutionary preferences. Rebasing ethics is at least as difficult so have some patience while it gets figured out.

In response to comment by Shalmanese on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: wedrifid 15 December 2009 04:18:44PM 2 points [-]

Perhaps they said something else similar and you oversimplified their meaning?

In response to comment by wedrifid on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 04:21:19PM 0 points [-]

Perhaps. Could you unsimplify it for me? I don't really see where they are being less than clear in their descriptions.

In response to comment by Shalmanese on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: wedrifid 15 December 2009 03:31:43PM 0 points [-]

That may or may not be so but I'm going by what leading atheists claim.

I don't believe you. Leading atheists don't say that. Perhaps they said something else similar and you oversimplified their meaning?

In response to comment by wedrifid on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 04:10:53PM *  1 point [-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCL63d66frs

"I do not lie, I do not cheat and believe it or not, all because that is what I CHOOSE. I know right from wrong. It is in the best interests of Humankind to 'get along'. If we all killed each other off then we wouldn't be able to carry on generation after generation. Killing each other and doing harm goes against all of Evolution!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx1yXvcT2kw

As an aside, it's much harder to find text references to this than video links.

In response to Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: RichardKennaway 15 December 2009 03:22:18PM *  3 points [-]

If there are no moral facts, why are you telling us what we should and should not do?

Overindulging in fatty, sweet, salty foods appears to be harmful; this is why one may do well to limit it. What corresponding harm do you see done by tipping waitresses that one will never see again, that would be prevented by the moral code that you advocate?

You're not explicit about it, but you appear to be advocating "selfish utilitarianism": the principle that one's personal utility is the only proper moral value, and should consider other people only as a means to one's own benefit. But as I said, having thrown out shoulds at the start, I don't see how you get them back in.

The first rule of rebasing your entire ethics system is that you never tell anyone you've rebased your entire ethics system.

For much the same reasons that you should never tell anyone you're a serial killer.

I second Yvain's recommendation for further reading.

Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 04:03:31PM -2 points [-]

It's easy: not tipping gives you an extra 18% of your dining out budget that you can spend on hookers & blow.

Better minds that I have talked about the quest for purpose in the absense of faith and I choose deliberately not to endorse any particular moral goal in this piece. selfish utilitarianism (is this really any different from hedonism?) is a good a goal as any although it's not one I personally choose as a moral end goal.

The crux of the argument is not about how you should act but you how you should fight your own moral revulsion when deciding how you should act.

In response to Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: Yvain 15 December 2009 02:42:24PM *  11 points [-]

Altruism is no longer valuable in evolutionary terms, but who cares?.

What's important to us as people isn't evolutionary value, it's satisfying personal preferences derived causally but not normatively from evolutionary value. Having money is one of those preferences. Being a nice person is another one of those preferences. If you deliberately make a choice that satisfies weaker preferences than the alternative, you're just throwing away utility for no reason.

If you haven't already, I suggest reading the Evolution Sequence, especially Alien God, Adaption-Executors, and Evolutionary Psychology, and the Metaethics Sequence

Now, if you want to make this into a reaaaallly repulsive ethical dilemma, add that true utilitarians should refuse to tip so they can donate that money to a charity that produces greater utility than the tip does.

In response to comment by Yvain on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 03:56:27PM 1 point [-]

I deliberately chose an innocuous example so as to not overly trip the discussion into the specifics of the example itself. I'm not going to talk about some of the more extreme examples of what this would imply until other people do.

You're correct in that modifying tipping behavior by itself would probably not be worth being a dick about in the same way that just switching to low fat milk is probably not worth absorbing all of our science of nutrition & dieting about. You have to be able to see the cumulative effects of a complete rebasing before you can judge it's ultimate utility.

As for whether it's worth it, I think you need to look at where a person wants to be vs where they actually are. Looking out in the world, I don't see a lot of rationalists of the type who inhabit this board who are rich, powerful, admired, have happy marriages or have fulfilled the potential they believe they have. I'm not promising that you'll have all of that if you just rebase your ethics but If you happy not to try just so you can keep your warm fuzzy moral feelings, that's, of course, your own choice.

In response to Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: grouchymusicologist 15 December 2009 02:41:08PM 1 point [-]

Of the current figures who accept these premises, most espouse some form of secular humanism which argues that humans are genetically programed not to lie, murder or steal, therefore this is both the right morality & the one they practice.

This sounds wrong to me. It seems rather that humans are genetically programmed to lie, murder, and steal, and that, insofar as ethics help society function smoothly, they do so by constructing a system in which people feel inhibited about doing the "bad" things they are genetically programmed to do.

Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 03:25:10PM -2 points [-]

That may or may not be so but I'm going by what leading atheists claim. The only reason I finally wrote this was because I just got back from a screening of Collapse where Hitchens was espousing some Brotherhood of Man nonsense while weaseling out of directly confronting the issue of why secular morality looks suspiciously like christian morality warmed over.

In response to Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: Morendil 15 December 2009 03:06:16PM *  3 points [-]

Move to France for a while. You will learn not to tip, and you won't feel bad about it.

If this fills you with immediate moral revulsion

This assumes a culturally narrow "you".

In response to comment by Morendil on Rebasing Ethics
Comment author: Shalmanese 15 December 2009 03:22:46PM 0 points [-]

Not tipping when the social expectation is not to tip is no big deal. But not tipping when it's culturally expected of you is being a dick and that's what I'm talking about.

Comment author: Shalmanese 13 December 2009 02:32:57PM 12 points [-]

Wasn't there a post here a while back that talked about how anyone positing a confidence of 0.999 on something non-trivial was most likely to be suffering from their own cognitive biases?

Comment author: Shalmanese 10 December 2009 12:38:05AM 4 points [-]

my somewhat admittedly sketchy reasoning:

I go to the University of Washington where there is considerable interest in the case. Of the people who have only been marginally involved in the case, most believe that Amanda Knox is innocent. Of the people who are interested in the case, many believe she is guilty. There's an obvious hometown effect here which biases towards innocence so I'm assuming those who look into the case are taking that into account when and still reach a guilty verdict.

Therefore, I assign a 70% probability to Amanda Knox being guilty (+ or - 30%).

Comment author: Shalmanese 01 October 2009 12:55:47AM 1 point [-]

When you encounter a road block, you don't need to give up. You can simply emulate each other's intuitions and proceed with as a provisional argument (assuming your world view is true...).

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