Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 05 May 2009 10:13:39AM 0 points [-]

But then the reasons you name are not true sources of its special status, and you may as well be silent.

Comment author: Simey 05 May 2009 11:53:35AM 5 points [-]

I disagree. If a non-believer argues that he considers the Book of Job to be a sacred text and therefore of a different quality than, say, The Merchant of Venice he does this most certainly on the grounds mentioned by mtavern. The mere fact that a certain thing is considered as sacred or is admired by a lot of people changes our perception of that thing and insofar adds a new quality to it. It does that even if a certain person doesn't admire it or believe in it. The fact that you (probably) don't admire Britney Spears does not change the fact that you regard her as a "celebrity" which is nothing else than the consequence of other people admiring her.

Comment author: ciphergoth 21 April 2009 06:15:40AM 2 points [-]

Carrier lost by his own admission, on his home territory.

I've given a lot of thought to how I'd combat what he says, and what I think it comes down to is that standard, "simple" atheism that says "where is your evidence" isn't going to work; I would explicitly lead with the fact that religious language is completely incoherent and does not constitute an assertion about the world at all, and so there cannot be such a thing as evidence for it. And I would anticipate the way he's going to mock it by going there first: "I'm one of those closed-minded scientists who says he'll ignore the evidence for Jesus". At least when I play the debate out in my head, this is always where we end up, and if we start there I can deny him some cheap point scoring.

Comment author: Simey 21 April 2009 02:39:07PM 0 points [-]

"I'm one of those closed-minded scientists who says he'll ignore the evidence for Jesus"

He would probably answer that it is not scientific to ignore evidence. Miracles cannot be explained by science. But they could - theoretically - be proven with scientific methods. If someone claims to have a scientific proof of a miracle (for example a video), it would be unscientific to just ignore it, wouldn't it?