Comment author: ChristianKl 22 June 2016 06:54:15PM 0 points [-]

Law might want to govern them, but the power of the state is limited. A court can't compel a computer that executes code to do anything.

Comment author: Slider 22 June 2016 10:56:03PM 0 points [-]

Court can order computers dismantled. And I think there are methods for state to aquire property if it can be shown to be a "vechicle of crime". It is afterall the state that controls the monopoly on violence needed to enforce private property in the first place.

Comment author: Pimgd 06 June 2016 11:57:04AM *  1 point [-]

I understand the normal version of newcombs perfectly fine, I understand the normal version of counterfactual mugging (or at least the wiki version of it) perfectly fine, I get that the transparent boxes are mostly the same if you follow the logic , but in this case, the choice is presented AFTER you've picked boxes. "Here are two boxes. Would you like one or both. 'Both please.' Okay, also I'd like to inform you that if you pick both, you don't get the million. No backsies."

Saying that this is predicted in advance is weird, because there is no possibility of a meaningful loop: the moment of timeline separation is AFTER the choice has been made. The choice is set in stone. There is no possible change. You can pay, but it won't change a thing. Unless you were somehow determined to pay people in scenarios like this - which requires knowledge of scenarios like this.

In the original version, something happens, and then the losing you is contacted and asked whether you'd want to pay. And you'd be able to choose at that point, and even think about it. And then it turns out this was all a simulation and because you paid, the winning real you gets paid.

In this version, we could make it work by taking the result of the previous simulation (I flipped a coin you lost, pay me $100 or I won't pay $10000 if you had won), and then going through the prophet who either says you're fine if losing you paid, or that you're not fine if losing you didn't pay.

But what we cannot do is simulate this and loop it on itself. You are doomed in the future. You are always doomed in the future. There is no possibility of you being not doomed in the future. But, if you pay, then there is a possibility that you are not doomed in the future. That's a contradiction right there. If I accept that the statement about my unchanging future is false, then I'll pay because then I can go from 100% doomed to 50% doomed. If I accept that the statement about changing my future is false, then I won't pay, because you're a snake oil salesman, your cure will do me no good.

To fix this, the wording needs to be altered so that there is no contradiction and that there is a clear result of paying the money that will reduce the chance.

In short, I think this problem relies too much on UDT's ability to magically teleport between possible situations and failed to left a path for Time to take.

Comment author: Slider 06 June 2016 01:20:28PM 0 points [-]

I think even with the ordinary phrasing the omegas prediction can be thought to sit in a sealed envelope as the real you picks. You don't think about the problem until then with your own brain. But in a way the contents of the envelope can be deduced from the transparent boxes.

I think it exhibits the same kind of wierdness. It doesn't really make sense to ever have the player choose only the empty transparent box, because the box will only be left empty if the player is predicted to pick both. So committing to not take both boxes means the boxes will be full. It doesn't really mean that the impossible "presented with two empty boxes" scenario is destroyed.

Comment author: Slider 06 June 2016 10:33:19AM -2 points [-]

I have found what I think is equivalent to the counter-factual mugging.

You come across a thread on 4chan with text like "You have been visited by the murderous dog of murder. Your mother will die in their sleep tonight unless you please the doggie with 'good doggie'" Do you reply or do you have reason to reply? On one hand you don't have any evidence on who is posting the post and whether they are actually being able to pull of the murder. On the other hand the message is highly unplausible. (One could argue that seeing several "good doggie" replies is social proof that somebody is taking it seriously enough (but the explanation that it is more lolzy to play along is more plausible)).

The logic of someone who replies (outside of the lol factor) is "meh, its quickly typed and it would suck to find my mother dead the next morning". Yet it means that anyone that makes such a "visited by" thread is guaranteed many replies. Someone that recognises this is doesn't think that much about how credible th threat is. She just recognises the mugging and ignores the thread.

Comment author: Lumifer 01 June 2016 02:26:41PM 0 points [-]

For example genders are way more economically integrated than countries.

Huh?

Comment author: Slider 01 June 2016 06:08:32PM 1 point [-]

Women and men tend to live in each other proximity and atleast have occasional contact. You don't in the same way spatially mix different states.

There are some effects where for example nurses can have disproportionally female composition. But even in such a setting the nurses might be regularly interacting with doctors which don't have the same kind of gender skew. How the nurses conduct themselfs might have very practical signifcance to possibly male doctors.

However things need to play out rather wonkily if a corporation has employess in two states. And one state can fix signficant laws that don't have any impact on the other state (as they don't hold there). There are some effects where for example some criminals find mexico to be a easy drug production place and the US a handy market for them. But these tend to be less intensive and don't reac tto each other so well.

Comment author: casebash 01 June 2016 12:31:22AM *  -2 points [-]

This scenario is explicitly about a hypothetical oppressed group. Some parts of it are explicitly motivated by gender discussions, many parts of the scenario are not supposed to be analogous.

Comment author: Slider 01 June 2016 11:34:13AM 2 points [-]

In meshing together multiple issues there is risk that you think of interactions of phenomena that actually do not interact because they are part of different series of events.

For example genders are way more economically integrated than countries. But genders also usually don't have leadership hierarchies. Usually hypotheticals work by cutting out stuff that is inessential to the central logic of the phenomen making it easier to see and reason about. If you just slap together random mechanics taht might or migth not be relevant its going to be a very unintuitive franksteins of fact and fiction where you don't know which part is which.

There is something to the idea of appriciating how several social effects work together to make systems and complex outcomes. And about discovering social effects that are in effect that are not obvious. But trying to make both at once seems more like a recipe for confusion rather than clarity.

Comment author: Slider 29 May 2016 03:44:40PM 2 points [-]

If this is supposed to be a name swap for an actual conflict its too mangled to get throught. On the otherhand it seems messy and unclear as a pure hypothetical. It is some kind abstraction over many such conflicts? Alpago and Byzantine also seem awfully integrated into a single economy and how a country membership now is an economic class. I would expect two countries economies to mainly funciton within their own context and mechanicsw and not so automatically lean to others.

Also such phrases as "everyone who is reasonable now acknowledges that" are very shaded. I don't know whether it was intended to be used in that capacity its not a automatic "beyond reasonable doubt" disclaimer. Somewhat recently when I thought there were such stances and they "didn't get shot down" made me doubt the objectiveness of such claims. After hell experiences a couple of winters "when hell freezes" no more means "never". Addtionally what is the difference between "you are saying X but you are not reasonable" and "you are saying X, but you are just biased"? Also it can be understood as an expression of closed mindedness. No matter what your reasons or evidence they must be wrong if that is the conclusion. Or that if you say X I am going to disbelieve you as a person.

Comment author: Slider 25 May 2016 07:39:42PM 0 points [-]

For a lot of people knowledge about experience is gained by first having experience and then reflecting upon its details. However Mary's knowledge must be so throught that he must know the qualia minutia pretty accurately. It would seem she would be in a position to be able to hallucinate color before actually seeing it.

What is unintuitive about Marys position is that usually studying books doesn't develop any good deep rooted intuitions how things work. Usually being able to pass a test on the subject is sufficient bar for having ingested the material. Even in mathematics education there is a focus on "having routine". That is you need to actually do calculations to really understand them. I think this is aknowledgement that part of the understanding that is targeted at achieving is very lousily transmitted by prose.

Say that Gary knows perfectly that needles hurt but has never been injected with a needle. When he gets his first vaccine and it is just as he expected does he gain new knowledge from it? Is it consistent to answer differently for Gary than for Mary?

Comment author: Slider 25 May 2016 07:18:43PM 1 point [-]

It strikes me that you are taking what is supposed to be metaphorical as literally true. As in would you take a saying such as "an apple doesn't fall far from the apple tree" to be dysfuncitonal if "falling" is inadequately defined and "far" doesn't have any metric applied to it?

While "sum" has a technical meaning here it is used more of a standin for more loose category. For example in the same sense that "man + woman = man + woman + baby, ie 1+1=3". In a way even a childless family has pretty different properties than two singles considered as a group. But we don't need to go into concrete some kind of single defined "people sum" to appriciate this fact.

Comment author: ZoltanBerrigomo 14 January 2016 04:01:42AM *  0 points [-]

Still inability to realise what you are doing seems rather dangerous.

So far, all I've done is post a question on lesswrong :)

More seriously, I do regret it if I appeared unaware of the potential danger. I am of course aware of the possibility that experiments with AI might destroy humanity. Think of my post above a suggesting a possible approach to investigate -- perhaps one with some kinks as written (that is why I'm asking a question here) but (I think) with the possibility of one day having rigorous safety guarantees.

Comment author: Slider 14 January 2016 02:27:21PM 0 points [-]

I don't mean the writing of this post but in general the principle of trying to gain utility from minimising self-awareness.

Usually you don't make processes as opaque as possible to increase their possibility of going right. The opposite of atleast social political processes being transparent is seen as pretty important.

If we are going to create minilife just to calculate 42, seeing it get calculated should not be a super extra temptation. Preventing the "interrupt/tamper" decision by limiting options is rather backwards in doing that while it would be better to argue why it should not be chosen even if available.

Friendliness in Natural Intelligences

-4 Slider 18 September 2014 10:33PM

The challenge of friendliness in Artificial Intelligence is to ensure how a general intelligence will be of utility instead of being destructive or pathologically indifferent to the values of existing individuals or aims and goals of their creation. The current provision of computer science is likely to yield bugs and way too technical and inflexible guidelines of action. It is known to be inadequate to handle the job sufficiently. However the challenge of friendliness is also faced by natural intelligences, those that are not designed by an intelligence but molded into being by natural selection.

We know that natural intelligences do the job adequately enough that we do not think that natural intelligence unfriendliness is a significant existential threat. Like plants do solar energy capturing way more efficently and maybe utilising quantum effects that humans can't harness, we know that natural intelligences are using friendliness technology that is of higher caliber that we can build into machines. However as we progress this technology maybe lacking dangerously behind and we need to be able to apply it to hardware in addition to wetware and potentially boost it to new levels.

The earliest concrete example of a natural intelligence being controlled for friendliness I can think of is Socrates. He was charged for "corruption of the heart of the societys youngters". He defended that his stance of questioning everything was without fault. He was however found quilty even thought the trial could be identified with faults. The jury might have been politically motivated or persuaded and the citizens might have expected the results to not be taken seriously. While Socrates was given a very real possibility of escaping imprisonment and capital punishment he did not circumvent his society operation. In fact he was obidient enough that he acted as his own executioner drinking the poison himself. Because of the kind of farce his teachers death had been Plato lost hope for the principles that lead to such an absurd result him becoming skeptical of democrasy.

However if the situation would have been about a artificial intelligence a lot of things went very right. The intelligences society became scared of him and asked it to die. There was dialog about how the deciders were ignorant and stupid and that nothing questionable had been done. However ultimately when issues of miscommunications had been cleared and the society insisted upon its expression of will instead of circumventing the intervention the intelligence pulled its own plug voluntarily. Therefore Socrates was propably the first friendly (natural) intelligence.

The mechanism used in this case was that of a juridical system. That is a human society recognises that certain acts and individuals are worth restraining for the danger that they pose to the common good. A common method is incarcenation and the threat of it. That is certain bad acts can be tolerated in the wild and corrective action can then be employed. When there is reason to expect bad acts or no reason to expect good acts individuals can be restricted in never being able to act in the first place. Whether a criminal is released early can depend on whether there is reason to expect not to be a repeat offender. That is understanding how an agent acts makes it easier to grant operating priviledges. Such hearings are very analogous to a gatekeeper and a AI in a AI-boxing situation.

However when a new human is created it is not assumed hostile until proven friendly. Rather humans are born innocent but powerless. A fully educated and socialised intelligence is assigned for multiple year observation and control period. These so called "parents" have a very wide freedom on programming principles. However human psychology also has peroid of "peer guidedness" where the opinion of peers becomes important. When a youngter grows his thinking is constantly being monitored and things like time of onset of speech are monitored with interest. They also gain guidance on very trivial thinking skills. While this has culture passing effect it also keeps the parent very updated on what is the mental status of the child. Never is a child allowed to grow or reason extended amounts of time isolated. Thus the task of evaluating whether an unknown individual is friendly or not is not encountered. There is never a need to turing-test that a child "works". There is always a maintainer and it has the equivalent of psychological growth logs.

However despite all these measures we know that small children can be cruel and have little empathy. However instead of shelving them as rejects we either accomodate them with an environment that minimises the harm or direct them to a more responcible path. When a child ask a question on how they should approach a particular kind of situation this can be challenging for the parent to answer. The parent might also resort to giving a best-effort answer that might not be entirely satisfactory or even wrong advice may be given. However children have dialog with their parents and other peers.

An interesting question is does parenting break down if the child is intellectually too developed compared to the parent or parenting environment? It's also worth noting that children are not equipped with a "constitution of morality". Some things they infer from experience. Some ethical rules are thougth them explicitly. They learn to apply the rules and interpret them in different situations. Some rules might be contradictory and some moral authorities trusted more.

Beoynd the individual level groups of people have an mechanism of acccepting other groups. This doesn't always happen without conditions. However here things seem to work much less efficently. If two groups of people differ in values enough they might start a war of ideology against each other. This kind of war usually concludes with physical action instead of arguments. Suppression of Nazi Germany can be seen as friendliness immune reaction. Normally divergent values and issues having countries wanted and could unite against a different set of values that was tried to be imposed by force. However the success Nazis had can debatably be attributed for a lousy conclusion of world war I. The effort extended to build peace varies and contests with other values.

Friendliness migth also have an important component that it is relative to a set of values. A society will support the upring of certain kinds of children with the suppression of certain other kinds. USSR had officers that's sole job was to protect that things were going according to party line. At this point we have trouble getting a computer to follow anyones values. However it might be important to ask "friendly to whom?". The exploration of friendliness is also an exploration in hostility. We want to be hostile towards UFAIs. It would be awful for a AI to be friendly only towards it's inventor, or only towards it's company. However we have been hostile to neardentals. Was that wrong? Would it be a signficant loss to developed sentience if AIs were less than friendly to humans?

If we ask our grandgrandgrandparents on how we should conduct things they might give a different version than we have. It's expectable that our children are capable of going beyond our morality. Ensuring that a societys values are never violated would be to freeze them in time indefinately. In this way there can be danger in developing a too friendly AI. For that AI could never be truly superhuman. In a way if my child asks me a morally challenging question and I change my opinion about it by the result of that conversation it might be a friendliness failure. Instead of imparting values I receive them with the values causal history being in the inside of a young head instead of a cultural heritage of a longlived civilization.

As a civilizaton we have mapped a variety of thoughts and psyche- and organizational strucutres on how they work. The thought space on how an AI might think is poorly mapped. However we are spreading our understandig on cognitive diversity learning about how austistic persons think as well as dolphins. We can establish things liek that some savants are really good with dates and that askingn about dates from that kind of person is more realiable than an ordinary person. To be able to use AI thinking we need to understand what AI thought is. Up to now we have not needed to study in detail how humans think. We can just adapt to the way they do without attending to how it works. But in similar that we need to know the structure of a particle accelerator to be able to say that it provides information about particle behaviour we need to know why it would make sense to take what an AI says seriously. The challenge would be the same if we were asked to listen seriously to a natural intelligence from a foreign culture. Thus the enemy is inferential distance itself rather than the resultant thought processes. For we know that we can create things we don't understand. Thus it's important to understand that doing things you don't understand is a recipe for disaster. And we must not fool ourself that we understand what a machine thinking would be. Only once we have convinced our fellow natural intelligences that we know what we are doing can it make sense to listen to our creations. Socrates could not explain himself so his effect on others was unsafe. If you need to influence others you need to explain why you are doing so.

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