Comment author: Jiro 30 January 2014 12:58:28AM 1 point [-]

Don't dismiss what non-LWers are trying to say just because they don't phrase it as a LWer would. "Didn't offer real accreditation" means that they 1) are skeptical about whether the the plan teaches useful skills (doing a Bayseian update on how likely that is, conditional on the fact that you are not accredited), or 2) they are skeptical that the plan actually has the success rate you claim (based on their belief that employers prefer accreditation, which ultimately boils down to Bayseianism as well).

Furthermore, it's hard to figure the probability that something is a scam. I can't think of any real-world situations where I would estimate (with reasonable error bars) that something has a 50% chance of being a scam. How would I be able to tell the difference between something with a 50% chance of being a scam and a 90% chance of being a scam?

Comment author: Solvent 30 January 2014 01:21:29AM 4 points [-]

I don't think that they're thinking rationally and just saying things wrong. They're legitimately thinking wrong.

If they're skeptical about whether the place teaches useful skills, the evidence that it actually gets people jobs should remove that worry entirely. Their point about accreditation usually came up after I had cited their jobs statistics. My impression was that they were just looking for their cached thoughts about dodgy looking training programs, without considering the evidence that this one worked.

Comment author: Aleksander 29 January 2014 11:11:23PM 1 point [-]

I've wondered why more people don't train to be software engineers. According to wikipedia, 1 in 200 workers is a software engineer. A friend of mine who teaches programming classes estimates 5% of people could learn how to program. If he's right, 9 out of 10 people who could be software engineers aren't, and I'm guessing 8 of them make less in their current job than they would if they decided to switch.

One explanation is that most people would really hate the anti-social aspect of software engineering. We like to talk a lot about how it's critical for that job to be a great communicator etc., but the reality is, most of the time you sit at your desk and not talk to anyone. It's possible most people couldn't stand it. Most jobs have a really big social factor in comparison, you talk to clients, students, patients, supervisors, etc.

Comment author: Solvent 29 January 2014 11:20:43PM 1 point [-]

I suspect that most people don't think of making the switch.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 29 January 2014 11:09:40PM 0 points [-]

I did, but the job I got was being a TA for App Academy, so that might not count in your eyes.

Indeed it does not. I don't count your experience as an example of the OP.

dissatisfied with their experience of job search.

That's... an awfully strange phrasing. Do you mean they all found a web development job as a result of attending App Academy? Or what?

Comment author: Solvent 29 January 2014 11:19:53PM 1 point [-]

Pretty much all of them, yes. I should have phrased that better.

My experience was unusual, but if they hadn't hired me, I expect I would have been hired like my classmates.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 29 January 2014 09:25:17PM *  0 points [-]

5. And, most importantly, doing so has (not "will"! already has!) caused them to win, in a clear, unambiguous, significant way.

You have, I take it, already gotten a job as a result of finishing App Academy?

Comment author: Solvent 29 January 2014 10:42:28PM *  1 point [-]

I did, but the job I got was being a TA for App Academy, so that might not count in your eyes.

Their figures are telling the truth: I don't know anyone from the previous cohort who was dissatisfied with their experience of job search.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 29 January 2014 09:27:16PM 3 points [-]

move to San Francisco

Unrelatedly to my other response: uh, move to San Francisco? That... costs a lot of money. Even if only for nine weeks. Where did you live for the duration?

Comment author: Solvent 29 January 2014 10:42:04PM *  3 points [-]

They let you live at the office. I spent less than $10 a day. Good point though.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 21 January 2014 03:14:30AM *  20 points [-]

Yvain, could you give a real-life example analogous to your Goofus & Gallant story?

That is, could you provide an example (or several, even better) of a situation wherein:

  1. There is some opportunity for clear, unambiguous victory;
  2. Taking advantage of it depends primarily on taking a strange/unconventional/etc. idea seriously (as distinct from e.g. not having the necessary resources/connections, being risk-averse, having a different utility function, etc.);
  3. Most people / normal people / non-rationalists do not take the idea seriously, and as a consequence have not taken advantage of said opportunity;
  4. Some people / smart people / rationalists take the idea seriously, and have gone for the opportunity;
  5. And, most importantly, doing so has (not "will"! already has!) caused them to win, in a clear, unambiguous, significant way.

Note that cryonics does not fit that bill (it fails point 5), which is why I'm asking for one or more actual examples.

Comment author: Solvent 29 January 2014 08:05:39PM *  3 points [-]

ETA: Note that I work for App Academy. So take all I say with a grain of salt. I'd love it if one of my classmates would confirm this for me.

Further edit: I retract the claim that this is strong evidence of rationalists winning. So it doesn't count as an example of this.

I just finished App Academy. App Academy is a 9 week intensive course in web development. Almost everyone who goes through the program gets a job, with an average salary above $90k. You only pay if you get a job. As such, it seems to be a fantastic opportunity with very little risk, apart from the nine weeks of your life. (EDIT: They let you live at the office on an air mattress if you want, so living expenses aren't much of an issue.)

There are a bunch of bad reasons to not do the program. To start with, there's the sunk cost fallacy: many people here have philosophy degrees or whatever, and won't get any advantage from that. More importantly, it's a pretty unusual life move at this point to move to San Francisco and learn programming from a non-university institution.

LWers are massively overrepresented at AA. There were 4/40 at my session, and two of those had higher karma than me. I know other LWers from other sessions of AA.

This seems like a decent example of rationalists winning.

EDIT:

My particular point is that for a lot of people, this seems like a really good idea: if there's a 50% chance of it being a scam, and you're making $50k doing whatever else you were doing with your life, then if job search takes 3 months, you're almost better off in expectation over the course of one year.

And most of the people I know who disparaged this kind of course didn't do so because they disagreed with my calculation, but because it "didn't offer real accreditation" or whatever. So I feel that this was a good gamble, which seemed weird, which rationalists were more likely to take.

Comment author: Solvent 26 November 2013 05:47:45AM 21 points [-]

I took the survey.

Comment author: Solvent 16 September 2013 05:06:32AM 2 points [-]

I'm a computer science student. I did a course on information theory, and I'm currently doing a course on Universal AI (taught by Marcus Hutter himself!). I've found both of these courses far easier as a result of already having a strong intuition for the topics, thanks to seeing them discussed on LW in a qualitative way.

For example, Bayes' theorem, Shannon entropy, Kolmogorov complexity, sequential decision theory, and AIXI are all topics which I feel I've understood far better thanks to reading LW.

LW also inspired me to read a lot of philosophy. AFAICT, I know about as much philosophy as a second or third year philosophy student at my university, and I'm better at thinking about it than most of them are, thanks to the fantastic experience of reading and participating in discussion here. So that counts as useful.

Comment author: shminux 01 September 2013 09:09:56PM *  6 points [-]

What can convince a philosopher to change her mind, anyway? I mean, it's not like there is an experiment that can be conclusively set up. Is it some logical argument she is unable to find a fault in? If so, then how come there are multiple schools of philosophy disagreeing on the basics? Can someone point to an example of a (prominent) philosopher changing his/her mind and hopefully the stated and unstated reasons for doing so?

Comment author: Solvent 02 September 2013 06:11:20AM 0 points [-]

The famous example of a philosopher changing his mind is Frank Jackson with his Mary's Room argument. However, that's pretty much the exception which proves the rule.

Comment author: DanielLC 02 July 2013 05:54:08AM 12 points [-]

Does anyone else here use dictionary of numbers (recommended on the xkcd blag)?

Hermione's body should now be at almost exactly five degrees Celsius [≈ recommended for keeping food cool].

Comment author: Solvent 02 July 2013 10:49:03AM 9 points [-]

Not only do I use that, it means that your comment renders as:

Hermione's body should now be at almost exactly five degrees Celsius [≈ recommended for keeping food cool] [≈ recommended for keeping food cool].

to me.

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