Meta: Meetup Section of the Site

4 Spencer_Sleep 12 April 2011 06:34PM

Recently there has been an explosion in the number of posts about meetups. I think this is a great thing, as it seems to me like one of the best uses of this site would be to facilitate the formation of rationality groups.  The problem with this is that they're starting to take over the main page, to the extent that currently upon going to the main page they are all one sees without scrolling down.

To solve this (perhaps trivial) problem, and more importantly to make the posts themselves more effective, I propose the creation of a section of this site devoted to the creation of and discussion about meetups/meetup groups.  I realize the wiki catalogue of groups exists, but I have 2 problems with it. First of all, it is fairly out of the way.  Fewer people use the wiki than the main site, and not everyone who uses the wiki reads all the links on the right side. I know I don't.  I only found the meetup page because I am one of the organizers of the Toronto group, and I did a Google search of lesswrong looking for posts about meetups. Secondly, the wiki format (compared to the blog post format) is far less conducive to discussion, and gives no priority to newer posts, something we would want for a meetup section to make it easier to start a group.  It also gives no way for people to indicate if they are going to be attending a meeting, something that is useful if the venue requires a reservation.

As an organizer, I want to posting on the main page about each meetup, so that we keep getting new members. That being said, I don't want to clog up the main part of the site with posts that only apply to 10 people, most of whom already know everything the post is going to say.  The only compromise I can think of is a section of the site devoted to meetups.  I am by no means a website designer, so I don't know if this is the best solution or if there is something simpler and more efficient I am overlooking. 

This post is aimed mainly at the moderators, as they are the ones who would have to implement anything we come up with, but input from everyone is appreciated.  Let me know if you think this is the best idea since sliced bread, or if (far more likely) you think it's highly unnecessary.

Toronto Meetup - Thursday, March 31st, 8:00 PM

3 Spencer_Sleep 25 March 2011 11:49PM
Comment author: Spencer_Sleep 25 March 2011 09:48:31PM *  7 points [-]

I'll just start off by saying that the latter "problem" will never happen outside of college. People simply do not have the time, effort, or motivation to do other people's work when they have their own job they're supposed to be doing. As rwallace astutely pointed out, college projects are way too small. When you are working, you will find that you (and everyone else) will always have more work to do than time to do it, so you (and everyone else) will not do others's work.

Your problem with the first group seems to boil down to the problem that people have different motivations. The sad truth is that this is going to be true in every setting, throughout your whole life. People always have different expectations of what they need to put in, and what they want to get out of a project.. What you need to do is learn to acknowledge that fact, and work with it. There are several ways of doing this. One of the easiest, though perhaps least fair, is (as was already suggested) to assign the work based on how much each person is likely to do. The problem with this is twofold: how much motivation someone has is is fairly hard to judge accurately, and it can foster feelings of resentment in those who have to do most of the work towards those who are (relatively) coasting.

One thing I liked to do with groups in college, which admittedly is not for everyone, was to have periodic meetings. At the end of each meeting we would decide what we wanted done by the end of the next meeting. We would then partition the work that remained (not just that which we wanted done by the next meeting) among the group members. Everyone was encouraged to do as much of their assigned work as they had time to, but there was no penalty except the ire of the rest of the group if they didn't.

So far this sound like how almost everyone does projects, but here's the catch: we made a deal that no one could leave a meeting until the work that was expected to be done by the end of that meeting was done. If everyone did their assigned work, then meetings were short. If no one did it (as happened sometimes) meetings would go into the wee hours of the morning.

This system worked well for us for a few reasons.

1) Everyone got to do as much work (individually) as they wanted. 2) Everyone ended up doing a portion of the work. Those who had difficulty motivating themselves to work on their own got to do their work with others there to goad them into getting it done. 3) Since everyone ended up working together on large portions of the project, no one felt like anyone else was free-loading, as we all saw everyone else doing at least some work. 4) It was very easy to consult with other group members if there was a part you didn't understand, or had difficulty with. This also lent our documents some flow, as they ended up being done mostly in the same style. 5) Most importantly, the work always ended up getting done.

I'm not saying I've solved the problem, that this is the be-all end-all solution to how every group should work. The point of this post (if there is one) is to say that every group needs to acknowledge the fact that motivations differ among group members, and to find a system to deal with that. If my solution is the one you feel would work best for your team feel free to use it, but if not, get to work developing your own. If you and your team acknowledge and work around the problem, your teamwork will be much more harmonious, and will produce results of much higher quality.

Comment author: Vaniver 25 March 2011 01:03:21AM *  20 points [-]

More thoughts:

What are you going to do about sleep? The 9:30P - 5A schedule the US Army uses? A 3A-12N schedule? Will you schedule night owls and morning larks differently, or force everyone to be one type?

One of the intentions of boot camp is shared suffering. The last line of the parent comment was sort of a joke, but the more I think about it the more serious it is. Hazing actually increases group strength, and one of basic's functions is as a giant hazing program. Drill sergeants are trained to be hateable in a precise way. Is shared suffering one of your goals? Are you skilled at controlling how you make other people suffer?

Suffering is a big part of being a soldier and being physically active, but not necessarily part of being a rationalist and being mentally active. Will you keep that for the group effects, or try and make the process as pleasant as possible? Is rationality training something that goes better when you force it, like physical training or unit cohesion, or something that goes worse when you force it? Will you try to manage/preserve the curiosity of students, and how? How skilled are you at detecting and manipulating the bounds of human endurance?

Is there a reason you picked boot camp (training to become a soldier) as a model instead of novice or postulant in the Bayesian Order (training to become a monk)? Monks do the things you mention, and tend to have a more recognizably mental focus than soldiers, and seem much like a much more obvious model.

I've gone twice to IHS seminars (applications close in a week!), and greatly enjoyed the experience. They're week-long, with 4 105 minute lectures a day, lots of discussion time, and a nightly social that supposedly ends at midnight, before (optional) breakfast the next morning at 8. The other students are great, and I still keep up with several that I've met there, but the professors are the real draw. The slogan is "sleep less and think more," and it's clear by the end of the week that the pace isn't sustainable (the middle day has a free afternoon which I use to catch up on sleep, so I tend to be better off than most).

I still can't get over the time. 10 weeks is basic combat training. 10 weeks is Y Combinator (and they're the same 10 weeks). 10 weeks is two summer sessions at college, or almost a full long semester. 660 hours at California's minimum wage is $5,280. A 10-week communal experience is a good format for many things, but I don't yet see why it's a good format for rationality training, and risking that much time on something under someone else's control seems risky at best.

Comment author: Spencer_Sleep 25 March 2011 08:48:57PM 7 points [-]

I agree with Vaniver about the time commitment issue. Even ignoring being able to find things for people to do for all that time, and accounting for burnout, and similar troubles, there remains the problem that ten weeks is a sizeable portion of someone's life. Most people, especially those who work during the summer, will have a lot of difficulty putting their lives on hold for two and a half months.

At this point in my life, I could not sacrifice a summer of job experience (and the money I would earn from that). I would be happy, ecstatic even, to attend something like this for one, maybe two, weeks, but ten is simply too much time. Running shorter workshops would also let you do some research, and iron out the wrinkles before you try something on this scale.

I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, and it's a great idea, and a valiant effort, but I think you're going too big, too fast.

Comment author: [deleted] 24 March 2011 02:41:44AM 2 points [-]

I would say as a rough guesstimate that intelligence as such (a vague concept admittedly) really has fully developed or close to fully developed in the early teen years. Knowledge keeps building.

But "smart", which is the term Isaac used, colloquially is not limited to intelligence. For example the term "street smarts" refers entirely or almost entirely to knowledge, even to a kind of maturity, gained through a certain kind of experience.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Rationality Boot Camp
Comment author: Spencer_Sleep 25 March 2011 08:38:49PM 4 points [-]

Fluid and Crystallized intelligence (admittedly measured on IQ tests, which are not perfect to say the least) were both found to peak at age 26 by this study (for those who don't know the distinction between the two types of intelligence, wikipedia explains it rather well). Fluid intelligence levels off between 16 and 18, increases slightly until the mid-twenties, then starts a slow, steady decline. Crystallized intelligence is similar, except it levels off in the early twenties, and decreases much more slowly, though the decrease still starts in the mid-twenties.

Interestingly, the intelligence of people on the lower bound levelled off earlier (by about two years) than that of those on the upper bound.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 March 2011 06:26:26PM 4 points [-]

This is a great idea. Congrats!

Personally, I don't gamble for money, because I would go broke very quickly, but this is such a great idea that I'm almost tempted.

Comment author: Spencer_Sleep 25 March 2011 07:39:15PM 10 points [-]

Where did that belief that you would go broke very quickly come from? It seems, if you'll forgive me, a little irrational. If you improve your rationality and knowledge of basic probability to the point where it exceeds that of the average at the table you are playing at, you will (on average) make money.

Unlike sports. where height, reflexes and hand-eye coordination play such a huge factor, there is no intrinsic poker ability. Those who are "naturally" good at poker are simply those who are already more rational, at least in their playing of poker, and have a better prior knowledge (understanding may be a better word than knowledge, as most people do not take time to actually do the calculations) of the probabilities.

I think this is a great idea, though I do caution that people spend a little time practising with free games, or low stakes ones at least, as it can take a few games to get the hang of betting, and to get an intuitive understanding of the probabilities, as you will most likely not have time to calculate them while the game is being played.

The chance (pun intended) to make money off of rationality while doing something enjoyable and practising that rationality is simply too good to pass up.

Comment author: Spencer_Sleep 16 February 2011 10:54:07PM 4 points [-]

How are we to recognize one another? My current plan is to proclaim loudly that U.F.Os are real and aliens killed J.F.K., and then go to the table which seems most indignant.

Comment author: Spencer_Sleep 14 February 2011 10:32:54PM 3 points [-]

I only just found this site about a week ago, but it's fascinating. I'm slowly working my way through the sequences, and would be happy to meet and discuss with people of a like mind. I can't make it on the 16th or 18th but any other day would work for me.

View more: Prev