Comment author: RichardKennaway 17 August 2014 08:00:59AM 2 points [-]

Unfortunately, not all constructivists or dialetheists (as proponents of paraconsistent logic are called) would agree with my viewpoint entirely.

I cannot form any idea of what your viewpoint is, although I'm familiar with most of the logical topics you referenced. You always stop short of stating it, all the way up to the last sentence of the last footnote.

More generally, and this is addressed to everyone writing on a complex subject to an audience of diverse and unknown backgrounds, try writing your material backwards. Start at the end, the conclusion, and work back from that to the reasons for the conclusion, and the reasons for the reasons, and so on. Stop before you think you should and continue clarification in the comments as the need is revealed by the questions.

Comment author: StephenR 17 August 2014 02:48:34PM 0 points [-]

I've added an addendum that I hope will make things clearer.

Astray with the Truth: Logic and Math

2 StephenR 16 August 2014 03:40PM

LessWrong has one of the strongest and most compelling presentations of a correspondence theory of truth on the internet, but as I said in A Pragmatic Epistemology,  it has some deficiencies. This post delves into one example: its treatment of math and logic. First, though, I'll summarise the epistemology of the sequences (especially as presented in High Advanced Epistemology 101 for Beginners). 

Truth is the correspondence between beliefs and reality, between the map and the territory.[1] Reality is a causal fabric, a collection of variables ("stuff") that interact with each other.[2] True beliefs mirror reality in some way. If I believe that most maps skew the relative size of Ellesmere Island, it's true when I compare accurate measurements of Ellesmere Island to accurate measurements of other places, and find that the differences aren't preserved in the scaling of most maps. That is an example of a truth-condition, which is a reality that the belief can correspond to. My belief about world maps is true when that scaling doesn't match up in reality. All meaningful beliefs have truth-conditions; they trace out paths in a causal fabric.[3] Another way to define truth, then, is that a belief is true when it traces a path which is found in the causal fabric the believer inhabits.

Beliefs come in many forms. You can have beliefs about your experiences past, present and future; about what you ought to do;  and, relevant to our purposes, about abstractions like mathematical objects. Mathematical statements are true when they are truth-preserving, or valid. They're also conditional: they're about all possible causal fabrics rather than any one in particular.[4] That is, when you take a true mathematical statement and plug in any acceptable inputs,[5] you will end up with a true conditional statement about the inputs. Let's illustrate this with the disjunctive syllogism:

((A∨B) ∧ ¬A) ⇒ B

Letting A be "All penguins ski in December" and B be "Martians have been decimated," this reads "If all penguins ski in December or Martians have been decimated, and some penguins don't ski in December, then Martians have been decimated." And if the hypothesis obtains (if it's true that (A∨B) ∧ ¬A), then the conclusion (B) is claimed to follow.[6] 

That's it for review, now for the substance.

Summary. First, from examining the truth-conditions of beliefs about validity, we see that our sense of what is obvious plays a suspicious role in which statements we consider valid. Second, a major failure mode in following obviousness is that we sacrifice other goals by separating the pursuit of truth from other pursuits. This elevation of the truth via the epistemic/instrumental rationality distinction prevents us from seeing it as one instrumental goal among many which may sometimes be irrelevant.


What are the truth-conditions of a belief that a certain logical form is valid or not? 

A property of valid statements is being able to plug any proposition you like into the propositional variables of the statement without disturbing the outcome (the conditional statement will still be true). Literally any proposition; valid forms about everything that can be articulated by means of propositions. So part of the truth-conditions of a belief about validity is that if a sentence is valid, everything is a model of it. In that case, causal fabrics, which we investigate by means of propositions,[7] can't help but be constrained by what is logically valid. We would never expect to see some universe where inputting propositions into the disjunctive syllogism can output false without being in error. Call this the logical law view. This suggests that we could check a bunch of inputs and universes constructions until we feel satisfied that the sentence will not fail to output true.

It happens that sentences which people agree are valid are usually sentences that people agree are obviously true. There is something about the structure of our thought that makes us very willing to accept their validity. Perhaps you might say that because reality is constrained by valid sentences, sapient chunks of reality are going to be predisposed to recognising validity ...

But what separates that hypothesis from this alternative: "valid sentences are rules that have been applied successfully in many cases so far"? That is, after all, the very process that we use to check the truth-conditions of our beliefs about validity. We consider hypothetical universes and we apply the rules in reasoning. Why should we go further and claim that all possible realities are constrained by these rules? In the end we are very dependent on our intuitions about what is obvious, which might just as well be due to flaws in our thought as logical laws. And our insistence of correctness is no excuse. In that regard we may be no different than certain ants that mistake living members of the colony for dead when their body is covered in a certain pheromone:[8] prone to a reaction that is just as obviously astray to other minds as it is obviously right to us.  

In light of that, I see no reason to be confident that we can distinguish between success in our limited applications and necessary constraint on all possible causal fabrics. 

And despite what I said about "success so far," there are clear cases where sticking to our strong intuition to take the logical law view leads us astray on goals apart from truth-seeking. I give two examples where obsessive focus on truth-seeking consumes valuable resources that could be used toward a host of other worthy goals. 

The Law of Non-Contradiction. The is law is probably the most obvious thing in the world. A proposition can't be truth and false, or ¬(P ∧ ¬P). If it were both, then you would have a model of any proposition you could dream of. This is an extremely scary prospect if you hold the logical law view; it means that if you have a true contradiction, reality doesn't have to make sense.  Causality and your expectations are meaningless. That is the principle of explosion(P ∧ ¬P) ⇒ Q, for arbitrary Q. Suppose that pink is my favourite colour, and that it isn't. Then pink is my favourite colour or causality is meaningless. Except pink isn't my favourite colour, so causality is meaningless. Except it is, because either pink is my favourite colour or causality is meaningful, but pink isn't. Therefore pixies by a similar argument. 

Is (P ∧ ¬P) ⇒ Q valid? Most people think it is. If you hypnotised me into forgetting that I find that sort of question suspect, I would agree. I can *feel* the pull toward assenting its validity.  If ¬(P ∧ ¬P) is true it would be hard to say why not. But there are nonetheless very good reasons for ditching the law of non-contradiction and the principle of explosion. Despite its intuitive truth and general obviousness, it's extremely inconvenient. Solving the problem of the consistency of various PA and ZFC, which are central to mathematics, has proved very difficult. But of course part of the motivation is that if there were an inconsistency, the principle of explosion would render the entire system useless. This undesirable effect has led some to develop paraconsistent logics which do not explode with the discovery of a contradiction. 

Setting aside whether the law of non-contradiction is really truly true and the principle of explosion really truly valid, wouldn't we be better off with foundational systems that don't buckle over and die at the merest whiff of a contradiction? In any case, it would be nice to alter the debate so that the truth of these statements didn't eclipse their utility toward other goals.

The Law of Excluded MiddleP∨¬P: if a proposition isn't true, then it's false; if it isn't false, then it's true. In terms of the LessWrong epistemology, this means that a proposition either obtains in the causal fabric you're embedded in, or it doesn't. Like the previous example this has a strong intuitive pull. If that pull is correct, all sentences Q ⇒ (P∨¬P) must be valid since everything models true sentences. And yet, though doubting it can seem ridiculous, and though I would not doubt it on its own terms[9], there are very good reasons for using systems where it doesn't hold.

The use of the law of excluded middle in proofs severely inhibits the construction of programmes based on proofs. The barrier is that the law is used in existence proofs, which show that some mathematical object must exist but give no method of constructing it.[10] 

Removing the law, on the other hand, gives us intuitionistic logic. Via a mapping called the Curry-Howard isomorphism all proofs in intuitionistic logic are translatable into programmes in the lambda calculus, and vice versa. The lambda calculus itself, assuming the Church-Turing thesis, gives us all effectively computable functions. This creates a deep connection between proof theory in constructive mathematics and computability theory, facilitating automatic theorem proving and proof verification and rendering everything we do more computationally tractable.

Even if we the above weren't tempting and we decided not to restrict ourselves to constructive proofs, we would be stuck with  intuitionistic logic. Just as classical logic is associated with Boolean algebras, intuitionistic logic is associated with Heyting algebras. And it happens that the open set lattice of a topological space is a complete Heyting algebra even in classical topology.[11] This is closely related to topos theory; the internal logic of a topos is at least[12] intuitionistic. As I understand it, many topoi can be considered as foundations for mathematics,[13] and so again we see a classical theory pointing at constructivism suggestively. The moral of the story: in classical mathematics where the law of excluded middle holds, objects in which it fails arise naturally.

Work in the foundations of mathematics suggests that constructive mathematics is at least worth looking into, setting aside whether the law of excluded middle is too obvious to doubt. Letting its truth hold us back from investigating the merits of living without it cripples the capabilities of our mathematical projects. 


Unfortunately, not all constructivists or dialetheists (as proponents of paraconsistent logic are called) would agree how I framed the situation. I have blamed the tendency to stick to discussions of truth for our inability to move forward in both cases, but they might blame the inability of their opponents to see that the laws in question are false. They might urge that if we take the success of these laws as evidence of their truth, then failures or shortcomings should be evidence against them and we should simply revise our views accordingly. 

That is how the problem looks when we wear our epistemic rationality cap and focus on the truth of sentences: we consider which experiences could tip us off about which rules govern causal fabrics, and we organise our beliefs about causal fabrics around them. 

This framing of the problem is counterproductive. So long as we are discussing these abstract principles under the constraints of our own minds,[14] I will find any discussion of their truth or falsity highly suspect for the reasons highlighted above. And beyond that, the psychological pull toward the respective positions is too forceful for this mode of debate to make progress on reasonable timescales. In the interests of actually achieving some of our goals I favour dropping that debate entirely.

Instead, we should put on our instrumental rationality cap and consider whether these concepts are working for us. We should think hard about what we want to achieve with our mathematical systems and tailor them to perform better in that regard. We should recognise when a path is moot and trace a different one.

When we wear our instrumental rationality cap, mathematical systems are not attempts at creating images of reality that we can use for other things if we like. They are tools that we use to achieve potentially any goal, and potentially none. If after careful consideration we decide that creating images of reality is a fruitful goal relative to the other goals we can think of for our systems, fine. But that should by no means be the default, and if it weren't mathematics would be headed elsewhere. 


ADDENDUM

[Added due to expressions of confusion in the comments. I have also altered the original conclusion above.]

I gave two broad weaknesses in the LessWrong epistemology with respect to math.

The first concerned its ontological commitments. Thinking of validity as a property of logical laws constraining causal fabrics is indistinguishable in practical purposes from thinking of validity as a property of sentences relative to some axioms or according to strong intuition. Since our formulation and use of these sentences have been in familiar conditions, and since it is very difficult (perhaps impossible) to determine whether their psychological weight is a bias, inferring any of them as logical laws above and beyond their usefulness as tools is spurious. 

The second concerned cases where the logical law view can hold us back from achieving goals other than discovering true things.  The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are as old as they are obvious, yet they prevent us from strengthening our mathematical systems and making their use considerably easier. 

One diagnosis of this problem might be that sometimes it's best to set our epistemology aside in the interests of practical pursuits, that sometimes our epistemology isn't relevant to our goals. Under this diagnosis, we can take the LessWrong epistemology literally and believe it is true, but temporarily ignore it in order to solve certain problems. This is a step forward, but I would make a stronger diagnosis: we should have a background epistemology guided by instrumental reason, in which the epistemology of LessWrong and epistemic reason are tools that we can use if we find them convenient, but which we are not committed to taking literally.

I prescribe an epistemology that a) sees theories as no different from hammers, b) doesn't take the content of theories literally, and c) lets instrumental reason guide the decision of which theory to adopt when. I claim that this is the best framework to use for achieving our goals, and I call this a pragmatic epistemology.  

---

[1] See The Useful Idea of Truth.

[2] See The Fabric of Real Things and Stuff that Makes Stuff Happen.

[3] See The Useful Idea of Truth and The Fabric of Real Things. 

[4] See Proofs, Implications, and Models and Logical Pinpointing.

[5] Acceptable inputs being given by the universe of discourse (also known as the universe or the domain of discourse), which is discussed on any text covering the semantics of classical logic, or classical model theory in general.

[6] A visual example using modus ponens and cute cuddly kittens is found in Proofs, Implications, and Models.

[7] See The Useful Idea of Truth.

[8] See this paper by biologist E O Wilson.

[9] What I mean is that I would not claim that it "isn't true," which usually makes the debate stagnate. 

[10] For concreteness, read these examples of non-constructive proofs. 

[11] See here, paragraph two. 

[12] Given certain further restrictions, a topos is Boolean and its internal logic is classical. 

[13] This is an amusing and vague-as-advertised summary by John Baez.

[14] Communication with very different agents might be a way to circumvent this. Receiving advice from an AI, for instance. Still, I have reasons to find this fishy as well, which I will explore in later posts. 

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 August 2014 11:09:05AM 0 points [-]

I'd rather this phrasing because having the concept of a real Berlin can lead to confusions when we apply the idea of by analogy to other things, like theories of arithmetic, the universe.

I do think that there a real universe in the same sense that there a real Berlin. map(berlin) is not the same object as berlin just as map(universe) is not the same object as universe. Positivists want to have a state of affair where there's no difference between map(universe) and universe. That goal doesn't seem in reach and might even be theoretically impossible. That doesn't mean that it's helpful to just tell the positivists to pretend that map(universe) and universe are the same and the issue is solved.

In theory in bioinformatics different models of a phenomena have different sensitivity and specificity for a real phenomena. Depending on what you want to do you might use a model with high sensitivity or a model with high specificity. Neither of those models is more true and both aren't the same as the real phenomena. But to have the discussion about which models is more useful to describe a certain phenomena it's useful to have a notion of the phenomena.

In bioinformatics someone who wants to simulate 100 neurons is going to use a different model of neurons as someone who wants to simulate 10,000,000 neurons. At the same time it's important to understand that the models are not the reality. The Blue Brain Project claims to simulate a brain. If you want to know how much computational power is needed for "human uploading" you can't just take the amount of computational power that the Blue Brain project uses for a single neuron. Forgetting that they are investigating a model of a neuron and not a real neuron screws you.

If we take about whether or not there's more autism than there was 30 years ago it's very useful to be mentally aware of what you mean with the term autism. It could be that more people are diagnosed because they changed the diagnosis criteria. It could be that more people are diagnosed because there more awareness about autism in the general public and therefore fewer cases of autism stay undiagnosed.

Of course autism doesn't exist in the same ontological sense that a carbon atom exists. Positivism therefore doesn't really know what to do with it. You find positivist say silly things like that thing that exist in the same sense that autism exist aren't "real". The positivist doesn't want to talk about the ontology, that you need to talk about to speak meaningfully about how autism exists.

Because few people actual deal with practical ontology we have the DSM-V that defines mental illnesses in a really awful way. The committee that draw up the DSM-V didn't go and optimized their definitions for sensitivity and specificity so that two doctors will make the same diagnosis.

Comment author: StephenR 13 August 2014 03:28:01PM 0 points [-]

I'm going to drop discussion about the universe in particular for now. Explaining why I think that the map-territory epistemology runs into problems there would require a lot of exposition on points I haven't made yet, so it's better suited for a post than a comment.

I've realised that there's a lot more inferential distance than I thought between some of the things I said in this post and the content of other posts on LW. I'm thinking of strategies to bridge that now.

That doesn't mean that it's helpful to just tell the positivists to pretend that map(universe) and universe are the same and the issue is solved.

Hm, if you're attributing that to me then I think I haven't been nearly clear enough.

Earlier I said that I had ontological considerations but didn't go into them in my post explicitly. I'll outline them for you now (although I'll be talking about them in a post in the near future, over the next couple days if I kick myself into gear properly).

In the end I'm not going to be picky about what different models claim to be real so long as they work, but in the epistemology I use to consider all of those models I'm only going to make reference to agents and their perceptual interfaces. If we consider maps and models as tools that we use to achieve goals, then we're using them to navigate/manipulate some aspect of our experience.

We understand by trial and error that we don't have direct control over our experiences. Often we model this lack of control by saying that there's a real state of affairs that we don't have perfect access to. Like I said, I think this model has limitations in areas we consider more abstract, like math, so I don't want this included in my epistemology. Reality is a tool I can use to simplify my thinking in some situations, not something I want getting in the way in every epistemological problem I encounter.

Likewise, in your autism example, we have a model of possible failure modes that empirical research can have. This is an extremely useful tool, and a good application of the map-territory distinction, but that example still doesn't compel me to use either of those tools in my epistemology. The more tools I commit myself to, the less stable my epistemology is. (Keeping reservationism in the back of your mind would be helpful here.)

Comment author: ChristianKl 11 August 2014 04:00:10PM 0 points [-]

For example there's a commonly held belief that we shouldn't believe two mutually contradictory models since they can't both describe reality and at least one of them will lead us astray.

Maybe commonly held by positivists.

Not among people who really follow the "the map is not the territory". There are many maps of the city of Berlin. I will use a different map when I want to navigate Berlin via the public transport system than when I want to drive via bike.

At the same time if my goal is staying remaining sane, it's useful to not forget that neither of those maps are the territory of the city of Berlin. In the case of the city of Berlin few people will make the mistake of confusing the two. In other domains people do get into issues because things get complicated and they forget that their maps aren't the territory.

But motivations in some areas, like logic and physics, are much more heavily influenced by the positivists than transit maps.

For physics that true. For biology for example it isn't. It's not like the positivists are the only people around.

In not sure whether you position is: "I don't like positivism, let's do something different" or "I don't like positivism, let's do X". If it's the second I'm not sure what X is. If it's the first, I think that reading Science and Sanity would be helpful.

Comment author: StephenR 13 August 2014 01:08:28AM *  0 points [-]

Not among people who really follow the "the map is not the territory". There are many maps of the city of Berlin. I will use a different map when I want to navigate Berlin via the public transport system than when I want to drive via bike.

At the same time if my goal is staying remaining sane, it's useful to not forget that neither of those maps are the territory of the city of Berlin. In the case of the city of Berlin few people will make the mistake of confusing the two. In other domains people do get into issues because things get complicated and they forget that their maps aren't the territory.


In not sure whether you position is: "I don't like positivism, let's do something different" or "I don't like positivism, let's do X".

I don't think you need a "real Berlin" for that usage of maps to make sense: instead of saying that a transit map models some aspect of the real Berlin, we can say that the transit map is functional for navigating Berlin.

I'd rather this phrasing because having the concept of a real Berlin can lead to confusions when we apply the idea of by analogy to other things, like theories of arithmetic, the universe. or "the self." That's why I want it removed from our base epistemology. Of course I'll be very happy to use the map and territory epistemology as a heuristic if I find it easier to think with in certain situations, but because of its shortcomings elsewhere I will not claim that it is the correct epistemology.

Hopefully that brief explanation helps answer what I am trying to do to some extent. In any case I'm thankful for both the discussion (which I'd be happy to continue, of course) and the reading suggestion.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 August 2014 03:03:56PM 0 points [-]

Does it close certain fruitful paths by making us believe they are epistemically nonsensical or questionable?

Thinking that there is a reality out there that's separate from you model means that you can't do magic "Law of attraction" stuff where you change the territory by changing your model. You reject a whole bunch of mysticism that presupposes that model and territory are the same.

Do you think that some of that mysticism is a fruitful path that get's wrongly rejected?

Does having our epistemology underpinned by a model-reality relationship skew our motivations for creating models?

Different people have quite different motivations for creating models. There are logical positivists who think that the only goal of a model is to represent reality as accurately as possible. That doesn't mean that everyone who considers map and territory separate holds that extremist position.

If I look at the public transportation map of Berlin then the distances between places aren't very accurate. The map isn't designed for that purpose. That doesn't make it a bad map and I can still mentally distinguish the territory of Berlin from the map.

Comment author: StephenR 11 August 2014 03:24:29PM 0 points [-]

Do you think that some of that mysticism is a fruitful path that get's wrongly rejected?

No, but that's because I've seen it in action and noted that I don't have much use for it, and not because I've constructed an epistemology that proscribes it altogether.

I don't see the point of barring paths as inherently epistemically irrational. I would rather let anyone judge for themselves which tools would be appropriate or inappropriate, and model the success or failures in whichever way helps them choose tools more effectively later.

For example there's a commonly held belief that we shouldn't believe two mutually contradictory models since they can't both describe reality and at least one of them will lead us astray. In other words it isn't epistemically rational to believe both. I want to scrap judgements like that from the underpinnings of our epistemology, because that really does close fruitful paths. During revolutions in physics, after one theory gains a slight advantage the competitors all die out. I would like to see more of a plurality, so that we can have multiple tools in our arsenal with different potential uses. Rather than deciding that I can believe only one, I'll say that I can use any to the extent that they work, and I will hold beliefs about where and how I can apply them.

If I look at the public transportation map of Berlin then the distances between places aren't very accurate. The map isn't designed for that purpose. That doesn't make it a bad map and I can still mentally distinguish the territory of Berlin from the map.

You're right, of course, motivations vary. Transit maps are not trying to model distances, just the order of stops on various lines. But motivations in some areas, like logic and physics, are much more heavily influenced by the positivists than transit maps. I think we should be paying more attention to the specific uses we have in mind when constructing any model, including logics and theories of physics, whereas model-reality epistemologies make us think only of mirroring reality once we get to things considered more fundamental.

Of course some people are doing what I'm suggesting in "fundamental" areas. Constructivists in the foundations of math are constructing their foundations explicitly so that all math can be computable and subject to automated proof checking and theorem proving. Usually they don't fret about whether a constructive foundation will give us the real, true picture of math. Like I've said, I think we should adopt that mentality everywhere.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 August 2014 09:30:17AM 0 points [-]

I'm not requiring that "territory" be a coherent concept at all.

What do you mean with "coherent" concept inside pragmatism? In what sense does a pragmatist worry about whether or not something is coherent?

At the moment most of what you wrote seems like a bunch of catch phrase without a look at the deeper issues. General Semantics has in addition to it's nice slogan a bunch of thoughts about how to think.

I wouldn't like to phrase it that way, though.

Why? What wrong with the word ontology? I think you get into problems if you want to do ontology but refuse to think of yourself as doing ontology.

Comment author: StephenR 10 August 2014 02:14:50PM 0 points [-]

What do you mean with "coherent" concept inside pragmatism? In what sense does a pragmatist worry about whether or not something is coherent?

"Coherent" is a stand-in for some worries I have: Does having our epistemology underpinned by a model-reality relationship skew our motivations for creating models? Does it close certain fruitful paths by making us believe they are epistemically nonsensical or questionable? Does it have significant limitations in where it can be fruitfully applied and how? I think the answer to each is yes, which motivates me to get rid of the model-reality relationship from my core epistemology. Although of course I consider it perfectly legitimate to use that relationship as a heuristic in the context of a pragmatic background epistemology.

Why? What wrong with the word ontology? I think you get into problems if you want to do ontology but refuse to think of yourself as doing ontology.

It's not that I refuse. I just don't put much stock in the distinction between epistemology and ontology. I think they're entangled, and that pretending they aren't leads to confusion (see the p-zombie debate, for example).

I didn't really bring out the ontological elements of what I was doing in this post, and I recognised that afterward. I'll fix that oversight later.

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 August 2014 09:57:39AM 0 points [-]

I'll also give my pragmatism a slogan: "It's just a model."

In what aspect is your idea of pragmatism supposed to differ from general semantics with the slogan "The map is not the territory"? How about reading Science and Sanity and seeing whether that's the philosophy that you are looking for?

Instead I mean that I don't even think that the truth is a useful or coherent concept when stretched to accommodate what philosophers have tried to make it accommodate.

That's a claim about ontology not a claim about epistemology. When it comes to modern source I consider Barry Smith worth reading. He's doing practical ontology for bioinformatical problems.

Comment author: StephenR 10 August 2014 12:58:34AM *  0 points [-]

In what aspect is your idea of pragmatism supposed to differ from general semantics with the slogan "The map is not the territory"?

I'm not requiring that "territory" be a coherent concept at all. Suppositions about territories are models that my epistemology evaluates rather than assumptions built into the epistemology.

That's a claim about ontology not a claim about epistemology. When it comes to modern source I consider Barry Smith worth reading. He's doing practical ontology for bioinformatical problems.

If you like, you can think of this as a an ontological critique of most epistemologies. I wouldn't like to phrase it that way, though.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 06 August 2014 03:36:28AM 1 point [-]

I don't think we can give you favorable feedback, because you haven't claimed anything yet.

Truth is a terrible goal for epistemology. Nature gives us information, not access to truth. Many structuralist and post-modern critiques of meaning evaporate if you interpret the meaning of the sentence "The sky is blue" as refining the probability distribution describing the sky's color, rather than as being problematic because "blue" isn't clearly defined, or because the speaker hasn't been outside in ten minutes. A sentence's meaning is more like the odds ratio multipliers it provides for your priors than like a truth predication.

Comment author: StephenR 10 August 2014 12:53:29AM 0 points [-]

A sentence's meaning is more like the odds ratio multipliers it provides for your priors than like a truth predication.

And what do you mean by this? That the old truth model is less correct than the probabilistic model, or that the probabilistic model performs better in applications? Or maybe you're prone to say that the latter is more correct, but what you mean by that is that there's more use for it. That's the tension I am trying to bring out, those two different interpretations of epistemic claims. And my claim is that the second gets us farther than the first. For instance it permits us to use combinations of tools that most epistemologies would frown upon, like contradictory theories.

There's a shift in perspective that has to happen in the course of this discussion, from evaluating the intuitive correctness and reality-correspondence (even probabilistically) of theories as sets of claims about the world to evaluating the potential uses and practical strength of theories as tools to accomplish our goals. I'm supporting my approach epistemology in the second more pragmatic way rather than the first way, which is more epistemic.

Comment author: Protagoras 05 August 2014 06:45:25AM 5 points [-]

Pragmatists from Pierce through the positivists to Rorty have agreed with you that the goal is to avoid wasting time on theories of truth and meaning and instead focus on finding practical tools; they've only spoken of theories of truth when they thought there was was no other way to make their points understandable to those too firmly entrenched in the philosophical mainstream (or, even more often, had such theories attributed to them by people who assumed that must be what they were up to despite their explicit disavowals). I'm not saying all of those people agreed with you about everything (the positivists, for example, thought the fact/value distinction was a useful tool, although of course they didn't think it represented any fundamental truth about reality), but I think you greatly exaggerate your originality here. Of course, one might reasonably insist that originality is not as important as whether the theories actually are useful, but while I tend to be in sympathy with the pragmatist tradition, the fact that it has been around for quite a while without seeming to have radically triumphed over all rivals does provide some reason for doubt about the extent of its world-beating potential.

Comment author: StephenR 05 August 2014 11:53:38PM 0 points [-]

I think you greatly exaggerate your originality here.

I thought it might come across that way, but didn't want to invest a bunch of time listing my intellectual debts (the post is long enough already). For the record, I'm aware that my ideas aren't entirely original, and I suspect that when I think they are I would be able to find similar ideas in others' writing independently.

the fact that it has been around for quite a while without seeming to have radically triumphed over all rivals does provide some reason for doubt about the extent of its world-beating potential.

I think that part of the problem here is that pragmatists didn't spend nearly as much energy on the details of applying their ideas as, say, Carnap and Popper did. They also tended to keep their discussion of pragmatism to philosophical circles, rather than engaging with scientific circles about their research. There's a lot of inertia to fight in order to shift scientific paradigms and the pragmatists didn't engage in the social and political organisation necessary to do so.

I think I've provided a fair summary of some of the benefits of wearing a pragmatic thinking cap. And I'll be outlining those and others in more detail later.

Comment author: ShardPhoenix 05 August 2014 08:45:56AM *  1 point [-]

If the relevant behavior of the brain is computable (which seems likely to me), isn't there then a computable algorithm that does everything that you can do, if not better? I understand if you're objecting to overly simplistic models, but the idea that there is no one single (meta-)model that is most correct seems wrong in principle if not in present-day practice.

Comment author: StephenR 05 August 2014 11:39:20PM 1 point [-]

I'm fine with agents being better at achieving their goals than I am, whether or not computational models of the brain succeed. We can model this phenomenon in several ways: algorithms, intelligence, resource availability, conditioning pressures, so on.

But "most correct" isn't something I feel comfortable applying as a blanket term across all models. If we're going to talk about the correctness (or maybe "accuracy," "efficiency," "utility," or whatever) of a model, I think we should use goals as a modulus. So we'd be talking about optimal models relative to this or that goal, and a most correct model would be a model that performs best relative to all goals. There isn't currently such a model, and even if we thought we had one it would only be best in the goals we applied it to. Under those circumstances there wouldn't be much reason to think that it would perform well under drastically different demands (i.e. that's something we should be very uncertain about).

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