Comment author: taw 15 February 2010 07:48:05PM 13 points [-]

I'm too lazy to write a top-level post about it, but the main problem with AGW as I see it is that most people have reference class of "statements said by people like IPCC and Al Gore, who think that AGW is real, and Kyoto Protocol and similar activities are a good idea".

One group of people look at pretty solid evidence that AGW is real, and from this and such reference class infers that Kyoto Protocol type actions must also be good.

Another group of people look at pretty solid evidence that Kyoto Protocol is a very bad idea, and from this and this reference class infers that AGW might not be real.

All media show these issues as highly entangled, even though they're not really (well, if AGW is false, then Kyoto Protocol is almost certainly bad, but all three other combinations are possible).

I have two reference classes - one for AGWers' statements about climate which I estimate to be almost all true, and another for AGWers' statements about proper policy which I estimate to be almost all false.

Comment author: Sticky 19 February 2010 10:42:48PM 1 point [-]

Although I don't have any references handy, I've seen people argue that Kyoto-like changes in our lifestyles are necessary on ethical grounds apart from global warming. More often they'll simply dismiss any sort of technological solution as a "quick fix" or even as the thing that caused the problem in the first place.

There are quite a few people who would like to abdicate control over the physical world.

In response to comment by alexflint on Epistemic Luck
Comment author: mattnewport 09 February 2010 05:10:48PM *  7 points [-]

The psychology research I'm aware of suggests the opposite effect if anything - reading opposing views tends to make you more sure of your original views. This is a feature of confirmation bias.

In response to comment by mattnewport on Epistemic Luck
Comment author: Sticky 12 February 2010 10:37:26PM *  11 points [-]

The study described in the link only exposed the subject to a single article. The effect might be different for different amounts of exposure.

In my own experience this seems to be the case. When I briefly read politically opposing blogs I find them so obviously stupid that I'm amazed anyone could take the other side seriously, but when I spend a long while doing it I find my views moderating and sometimes even crossing over despite not being convinced by any of their actual arguments, and begin to be embarrassed by figures I normally admire even though most of what I find directed against them are mere pejoratives. Then afterward the effect wears off. I could be unusually easily-led, but I've heard of enough other similar experiences that I doubt it.

Comment author: Blueberry 11 February 2010 06:45:10PM -1 points [-]

If the decision is too fundamental to be made by the people, then we're saying that precisely the most important matters should be decided by people with interests that may not be those of the people whose interests we're actually trying to promote, which is the general public.

One of the main ideas behind this type of Constitutional interpretation is that these decisions were already made by the people. That's what the Constitution is, and it's why states and Congress can't pass certain laws, because they conflict with what the people have decided in the Constitution.

Comment author: Sticky 11 February 2010 08:21:05PM 0 points [-]

Well, yes. That's textualism: the decision was made and it's written down right here.

A Council of Elders who make the decision for us is something else altogether.

Comment author: David_J_Balan 11 February 2010 08:05:55AM 0 points [-]

Part of the reason for having a Constitution in the first place is supposed to be that there are some things that are so fundamental that they ought not be subjected to ordinary democratic decision-making. If you don't buy that premise, then we don't need a Constitution at all (or at least a Bill of Rights). If you do buy that premise, then the question becomes whether and when that set of things that is above the ordinary law ought to change over time. One defensible position is that it ought never to change unless the change can make it through the very difficult amendment process. But the way that position is usually advanced is by incorrectly claiming that the only alternative to it is judicial tyranny and then daring your opponent to come out on the side of the tyrants, and that is not defensible. And that was the main point of the post.

The "Wise Elders" point is merely that if you take a position other than the "no change except for amendments" one and so allow for some additional (though still limited!) changes over time, then the question becomes who should have the power to make those changes. Presumably they should be people who are in some sense above the political fray, because by assumption we are talking about things that should not be left to ordinary politics. And I can see no reason why the people who are given that power ought to be primarily legal experts.

Comment author: Sticky 11 February 2010 02:46:35PM *  -1 points [-]

However fundamental they are, they're still subject to some kind of decision-making. There's no way around the difficulty: whoever makes the decision has interests, including an interest in expanding his/their own power. If the decision is too fundamental to be made by the people, then we're saying that precisely the most important matters should be decided by people with interests that may not be those of the people whose interests we're actually trying to promote, which is the general public. If they're that much better than us that this makes sense, it's irrational to leave anything at all to democratic decision-making. Besides, when we give the Supreme Court or the Wise Elders the authority to decide fundamental issues, who gets to decide what a fundamental issue is? Are we going to write it down -- and who interprets this written document?

Comment author: Sticky 11 February 2010 07:06:18AM 1 point [-]

The Constitution is not a complete system of law (it is, if I remember correctly, the shortest national constitution currently in force) -- so, even if we dismiss the amendment process as airily as you do, the strictest originalism doesn't amount to "live under the exact framework set up by a bunch of very flawed 18th century white dudes forever", because most of that framework was in the form of statutory law. It's not clear to me that the amendment process deserves to dismissed the way you did. You call the Founders "very flawed", which is surely true, but many or most of the ways those flaws were reflected in the Constitution have already been addressed, by amendment. I say that simply to avoid any idea that we need some body such as you suggest simply to make adjustments from time to time.

Nevertheless, a thing may be desirable even if we don't actually need it. So, do we want "a process by which some trusted, relatively non-political body gropes their way to the solutions to problems"?

As it stands, this is a contradiction. Deciding upon solutions to public problems is what politics is. You are proposing to take the politics out of political decisionmaking. If it isn't just nonsense, I can only take this to mean taking the democracy out of political decisionmaking. Therefore what's wanted here is a defense of democracy itself.

Let us suppose that we have some way of knowing that the people chosen really are wise (although I can't imagine what test we could apply) -- we still can't trust them. By the very act of distinguishing them from non-members, we give them distinct interests which may well be contrary to the interests of the people. Their very existence as a body is already contrary to the people's interest in self-government. We are primates, after all, and we derive a significant portion of our subjective happiness from our power and status, which means that having a decision made for you rather than making it yourself is a significant disutility. The decisions would need to be of much higher quality to justify this on utilitarian grounds, but we can't trust a council of wise elders to give us decisions good enough, because, as I said, by virtue of their position they have different interests from us.

If an AI were available I would still object, because even if it seems Friendly we can't trust it that much. It might become aware of the fact that it also has interests.

Comment author: bgrah449 04 February 2010 06:47:03PM 0 points [-]

Addiction still exists.

Comment author: Sticky 06 February 2010 06:00:07PM 3 points [-]

Most people prefer milder drugs over harder ones, even though harder drugs provide more pleasure.

Comment author: pengvado 25 January 2010 03:03:33AM 4 points [-]

The process that builds the GLUT has to contain your mind, but nothing else. The deceiver tries all exponentially-many strings of sensory inputs, and sees what effects they have on your simulated internal state. Select the one that maximizes your belief in proposition X. No simulation of X involved, and the deceiver doesn't even need to know anything more about X than you think you know at the beginning.

Comment author: Sticky 25 January 2010 11:26:47PM 0 points [-]

If whoever controls the simulation knows that Tyrrell/me/komponisto/Eliezer/etc. are reasonably reasonable, there's little to be gained by modeling all the evidences that might persuade me. Just include the total lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the room where the murder happened, and I'm all yours. I'm sure I care more than I might have otherwise because she's pretty, and obviously (obviously to me, anyway) completely harmless and well-meaning, even now. Whereas, if we were talking about a gang member who's probably guilty of other horrible felonies, I'd still be more convinced of innocence than I am of some things I personally witnessed (since the physical evidence is more reliable than human memory), but I wouldn't feel so sorry for the wrongly convicted.

In response to comment by Sticky on Advancing Certainty
Comment author: Zack_M_Davis 24 January 2010 11:12:01PM *  2 points [-]

I downvoted the great-grandparent because it ignores the least convenient possible world where the simulators are implementing the entire Earth in detail such that the simulated Amanda Knox is a person, is guilty of the murder, and yet circumstances are such that she seems innocent given your state of knowledge. You're right that implementing the entire Earth is more expensive then just deluding you personally, but that's irrelevant to Eliezer's nitpick, which was only that 1/(3^^^3) really is just that small and yet nonzero.

Comment author: Sticky 25 January 2010 03:17:34PM *  1 point [-]

What possible world would that be? If it should turn out that the Italian government is engaged in a vast experiment to see how many people it can convince of a true thing using only very inadequate evidence (and therefore falsified the evidence so as to destroy any reasonable case it had), we could, in principle, discover that. If the simulation simply deleted all of her hair, fiber, fingerprint, and DNA evidence left behind by the salacious ritual sex murder, then I can think of two objections. First, something like Tyrrell McAllister's second-order simulation, only this isn't so much a simulated Knox in my own head, I think, as it is a second-order simulation implemented in reality, by conforming all of reality (the crime scene, etc.) to what it would be if Knox were innocent. Second, an unlawful simulation such as this might seem to undermine any possible belief I might form, I could still in principle acquire some knowledge of it. Suppose whoever is running the simulation decides to talk to me and I have good reason to think he's telling the truth. (This last is indistinguishable from "suppose I run into a prophet" -- but in an unlawful universe that stops being a vice.)

ETA: I suppose if I'm entertaining the possibility that the simulator might start telling me truths I couldn't otherwise know then I could, in principle, find out that I live in a simulated reality and the "real" Knox is guilty (contrary to what I asserted above). I don't think I'd change my mind about her so much as I would begin thinking that there is a guilty Knox out there and an innocent Knox in here. After all, I think I'm pretty real, so why shouldn't the innocent Amanda Knox be real?

In response to comment by Sticky on Advancing Certainty
Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 23 January 2010 08:25:31PM 4 points [-]

I'm not sure why this is being downvoted so much (to –3 when I saw it). It's a good point.

If I'm in a simulation, and the "base reality" is sufficiently different from how things appear to me in the simulation, it stops making sense to say that I'm fooled into attributing false predicates to things in the base reality. I'm so cut off from the base reality that few of my beliefs can be said to be about it at all. It makes more sense to say that I have true beliefs about the things in the simulation. I just have one important false belief about them—namely, that they're not simulated. But that doesn't mean that my other beliefs about them are wrong.

The situation is similar to that of the proverbial man who thinks that penguins are blind borrowing mammals who live in the Namib Desert. Such beliefs aren't really about penguins at all. More probably, the man has true beliefs about some variety of golden mole. He just has one important false belief about them—namely, that they're called "penguins".

Comment author: Sticky 24 January 2010 10:58:39PM 1 point [-]

Perhaps it's being downvoted because of my strange speculation that the stars are unreal -- but it seems to me that if this is a simulation with such a narrow purpose as fooling komponisto/me/us/somebody about the Knox case is would be more thrifty to only simulate some narrow portion of the world, which need not include Knox herself. Even then, I think, it would make sense to say that my beliefs are about Knox as she is inside the simulation, not some other Knox I cannot have any knowledge of, even in principle.

In response to Advancing Certainty
Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 18 January 2010 04:21:27PM 8 points [-]

Now, if it is the case that she didn't, then it follows that, given sufficient information about how-the-world-is, one's probability estimate could be made arbitrarily close to 0.

What, like 1/3^^^3? There isn't that much information in the universe, and come to think, I'm not sure I can conceive of any stream of evidence which would drive the probability that low in the Knox case, because there are complicated hypotheses much less complicated than that in which you're in a computer simulation expressly created for the purpose of deluding you about the Amanda Knox case.

Comment author: Sticky 23 January 2010 07:25:04PM *  3 points [-]

But surely any statement one could make about Amanda Knox is only about the Amanda Knox in this world, whether she's a fully simulated human or something less. Perhaps only the places I actually go are fully simulated, and everywhere else is only simulated in its effects on the places I go, so that the light from distant stars are supplied without bothering to run their internal processes; in that case, the innocent Amanda Knox only exists insofar as the effects that an innocent Amanda Knox would have on my part of the world are implemented. Even so, my beliefs about the case can only be about the figure in my own world. It doesn't matter that there could be some other world where Amanda Knox is a murderess and Hitler was a great humanitarian.

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