Comment author: Monkeymind 04 May 2012 05:50:15PM *  -4 points [-]

"To compare, LW contains a few discussions on many-worlds hypothesis versus collapse hypothesis, but those two are mathematically equivalent. In other case, an experiment could be done that decides between them, and someone would probably have done it decades ago."

Math can, and in the case of QM, must use infinities and 0-dimensional particles which can not exist in reality.

One can describe Hilbert's Hotel with infinite rooms, but construction of one is impossible. One can mathematically divide in half infinitely, but can not walk halfway to a wall forever. Math can do many things that reality can not.

Comment author: SusanBrennan 04 May 2012 08:52:25PM *  1 point [-]

Math can, and in the case of QM, must use infinities and 0-dimensional particles which can not exist in reality.

I'm a little confused by this objection to say the least. Could you express your views on the following topics in mathematics, particularly when they are used for real world applications, whether it be physics, computer science or engineering?

  1. The use of the "null vector" in linear algebra

  2. Limits approaching 0 in calculus

  3. Generalizing the rules of 3 dimensional space to represent 4 dimensional space

  4. Complex numbers and their various applications, particularly if you think we shouldn't use the square root of negative one if it has no identifiable physical properties

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 04 May 2012 08:52:14AM *  2 points [-]

The theory of "rational addiction" seems like an example that for any (consistent) behavior you can find such utility function that this behavior maximizes it. But it does not mean that this is really a human utility function.

it is better to have to deal with not-so-smart irrational people than it is to deal with intelligent and persuasive people who are not very rational

For an intelligent and persuasive person it may be a rational (as in: maximizing their utility, such as status or money) choice to produce fashionable nonsense.

Comment author: SusanBrennan 04 May 2012 09:50:47AM 2 points [-]

For an intelligent and persuasive person it may be a rational (as in: maximizing their utility, such as status or money) choice to produce fashionable nonsense.

True. I guess it's just that the consequences of such actions can often lead to a large amount of negative utility according to my own utility function, which I like to think of as more universalist than egoist. But people who are selfish, rational and intelligent can, of course, cause severe problems (according to the utility functions of others at least). This, I gather, is fairly well understood. That's probably why those characteristics describe the greater proportion of Hollywood villains.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Rationality Quotes May 2012
Comment author: nykos 03 May 2012 11:48:47AM *  5 points [-]

Even though his prescription may be lacking (here is some criticism to neocameralism: http://unruled.blogspot.com/2008/06/about-fnargocracy.html ), his description and diagnosis of everything wrong with the world is largely correct. Any possble political solution must begin from Moldbug's diagnosis of all the bad things that come with having Universalism as the most dominant ideology/religion the world has ever experienced.

One example of a bad consequence of Universalism is the delay of the Singularity. If you, for example, want to find out why Jews are more intelligent on average than Blacks, the system will NOT support your work and will even ostracize you for being racist, even though that knowledge might one day prove invaluable to understanding intelligence and building an intelligent machine (and also helping the people who are less fortunate at the genetic lottery). The followers of a religion that holds the Equality of Man as primary tenet will be suppressing any scientific inquiry into what makes us different from one another. Universalism is the reason why common-sense proposals like those of Greg Cochran ( http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/get-smart/ ) will never be official policy. While we don't have the knowledge to create machines of higher intelligence than us, we do know how to create a smarter next generation of human beings. Scientific progress, economic growth and civilization in general are proportional to the number of intelligent people and inversely proportional to the number of not-so-smart people. We need more smart people (at least until we can build smarter machines), so that we all may benefit from the products of their minds.

Comment author: SusanBrennan 03 May 2012 12:58:19PM 7 points [-]

Scientific progress, economic growth and civilization in general are proportional to the number of intelligent people and inversely proportional to the number of not-so-smart people.

That seems a little bit simplistic. How many problems have been caused by smart people attempting to implement plans which seem theoretically sound, but fail catastrophically in practice? The not-so-smart people are not inclined to come up with such plans in the first place. In my view, the people inclined to cause the greatest problems are the smart ones who are certain that they are right, particularly when they have the ability to convince other smart people that they are right, even when the empirical evidence does not seem to support their claims.

While people may not agree with me on this, I find the theory of "rational addiction" within contemporary economics to carry many of the hallmarks of this way of thinking. It is mathematically justified using impressively complex models and selective post-hoc definitions of terms and makes a number of empirically unfalsifiable claims. You would have to be fairly intelligent to be persuaded by the mathematical models in the first place, but that doesn't make it right.

basically, my point is: it is better to have to deal with not-so-smart irrational people than it is to deal with intelligent and persuasive people who are not very rational. The problems caused by the former are lesser in scale.

Comment author: Vulture 28 April 2012 03:26:23AM *  0 points [-]

Leonid: Without a purpose, a man is nothing.

Newton: Yes. But we wonder...do you share our gift? Do you have the necessary vision? Do you know the final fate of man?

Leonid: How could anyone know things like that?

Council: The Greater Science. The Quiet Math. The Silent Truth. The Hidden Arts. The Secret Alchemy.

Newton: Every question has an answer. Every equation has a solution.

  • S.H.I.E.L.D. #1 (Jonathan Hickman)
Comment author: SusanBrennan 29 April 2012 02:46:20PM 0 points [-]

Isn't one of the implications of Gödel's incompleteness theorem that there will always be unanswerable questions?

Comment author: TimS 28 April 2012 04:34:39PM 1 point [-]

Is there any decent moral theory that wouldn't be easier to implement with reliable telepathy?

In response to comment by TimS on A sense of logic
Comment author: SusanBrennan 28 April 2012 09:19:22PM 0 points [-]

Since this is LessWrong and there's a strong leaning towards a certain view of normative ethics, I had better ask this before I go any further. Would you consider any form of deontology or virtue ethics to be a "decent moral theory"? It feels like I should check this before commenting any further. I know, for example, that at least one person here (not naming names) has openly said that all non-consequentialist approaches to ethics are "insane".

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 April 2012 11:12:49PM *  1 point [-]

Sorry I was unclear... I meant my comment literally. I've never heard anyone making this argument, and I'm curious as to what happens if, in response, one says "Not all laws are constructed by some intelligence." That is, how do the people making this argument respond?

Edit: yeah, what danfly said.

Comment author: SusanBrennan 28 April 2012 08:55:36AM *  0 points [-]

Well, the only time I responded to one such argument, I rejected the second rather than the first premise. Your way might have been easier. I don't think it would have changed the response though.

He wrote the "socrates is man" syllogism right beside it and challenged me to find an example of someone who is immortal (kind of ignoring the fact that it would only prove a premise in that argument false, and not change the logical validity of that particular argument).

You know, maybe the initial argument isn't the worst I've ever seen. Now that I think about it, the response is probably the worst argument I've ever seen.

Comment author: Gastogh 27 April 2012 11:15:41PM 3 points [-]

The person making this argument thinks their argument is watertight because of its structure, and will likely not listen to any suggestion that natural laws are not a component of the laws described in the first premise.

If people think the structure is watertight and that the is argument valid because of that, maybe pointing out the structural flaw in clear terms would get through to them. Specifically, this one's called a fallacy of four terms, though it's in disguise; the word law is used to mean human-designed law in the major premise and any kind of law in the minor premise. The fact that the word also occurs in the phrase natural laws adds to the fun, too.

If going into even deeper detail might help, linguistics has a name for this sort of phenomenon: autohyponymy. It's when a word has a kind of "default general sense" in addition to one or more specific meanings, which occasionally leads to mix-ups. In this case, we have the hypernonym law (=all kinds of laws) and its hyponym law (=piece of human legislation). Another set of examples of the concept of autohyponymy would be the hyperonym dog (=dog of either gender) and its hyponyms dog (=male dog) and bitch (=female dog).

In response to comment by Gastogh on A sense of logic
Comment author: SusanBrennan 28 April 2012 08:50:01AM 0 points [-]

Thanks. I will have to remember that term in future.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 April 2012 10:08:12PM 1 point [-]

What happens if you simply reject the premise that all laws are constructed by some intelligence?

Comment author: SusanBrennan 27 April 2012 10:31:43PM *  0 points [-]

You are quite free to do so, unless you pick the definition of law which is exclusively legal, which is the abuse of language that this argument depends on. If you choose a definition of law under which natural laws or mathematical laws can be counted, then the first premise is indeed false (in a materialist framework anyway).

When you change the definition of law to the legal one, the second premise becomes nonsense.

Regardless of which you pick, any reasoned inference which respects the language involved will generally lead to one premise being true and the other false. Essentially, a materialist can arbitrarily decide which is the true premise and which is the false premise (provided a particular definition has not been made clear beforehand).

I don't know if there is a common definition of law which could make both premises false.

Besides, I didn't mention this because it was a good argument. I mentioned it because it is a shockingly bad argument that I have seen people take seriously.

In response to A sense of logic
Comment author: SusanBrennan 27 April 2012 08:59:24PM *  1 point [-]

This is one argument I find particularly irksome...

All laws are constructed by some intelligence

Natural laws are laws

Therefore, natural laws are constructed by some intelligence.

The annoying part is that it is deductively valid if the definition of law is actually the same in both premises. The person making this argument thinks their argument is watertight because of its structure, and will likely not listen to any suggestion that natural laws are not a component of the laws described in the first premise. I can't understand how anyone can fail to see the obvious problem with the argument, whereas the people who tend to make this type of argument fail to see why I am not persuaded by their supposedly "sound logic".

In response to comment by TraderJoe on Polyhacking
Comment author: TraderJoe 27 April 2012 10:43:34AM *  2 points [-]

[comment deleted]

In response to comment by TraderJoe on Polyhacking
Comment author: SusanBrennan 27 April 2012 01:17:04PM 2 points [-]

every time a male has sex with a female, both of their opposite-sex partners rise by one.

Just to ensure clarity, you meant to say; "every time a male has sex with a new female [partner], their opposite-sex partners rise by one. Correct?

One other thing which could skew the statistics is the fact that people that have had many sexual relationships can die, and the dead are not often counted in statistical surveys, while some of their partners might be.

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