Comment author: Pablo_Stafforini 07 August 2012 06:30:41PM *  0 points [-]

Example: Edward Boyden, Assistant Professor at the MIT Media Lab, recommends recording in a notebook every conversation you ever have with other people.

The link goes to Prof. Boyden's university profile, which doesn't mention his note-taking habits. This is all I could find after spending five minutes on Google:

"He was doing three students' worth of work," says Raymond. "Every moment of his day [is] action-packed." Both his advisors recall with a laugh Boyden's habit of taking notes on all his conversations and ideas. "He does this, so far as I can tell, every waking moment," says Raymond.

Does anyone here know where more information about Boyden's approach is to be found?

Comment author: Synaptic 25 August 2012 06:53:15PM 2 points [-]

Mike Darwin on animal research, moral cowardice, and reasoning in an uncaring universe

23 Synaptic 25 August 2012 04:38PM

He writes this essay in response to someone who writes about their "gut level emotional response when [they] thought about dogs being likely killed by an as yet unproven and dangerous medical procedure." 

I recommend the whole thing. If you are going to read it all, note that some text is duplicated near the end, though there is one paragraph at the very end which is not. 

First, he describes how animals share empathy and emotions with humans:

It is a maxim of the Animal Rights ideologues that "a rat is a dog is a boy." [PETA] This is patently not true, and might just be denounced as absurd on its face. But, it is true that rats, dogs and boys share important properties, or more generally, that rats, dogs and people share important properties. I have a huge reservoir of experience with rats, dogs and people. All three have a well developed sense of self, the ability to read my face and determine my mental state, and, obviously, the ability to experience most, if not all of the basic emotions and mental states that humans experience: anxiety, fear, emotional attachment to others (or their own and other species), sexual arousal and release, anticipation, enjoyment, curiosity, and so on. Most importantly, they have the ability to experience empathy - to extend their internal feelings to others. Well socialized rats and dogs know that the people they interact with can be hurt, provoked, pleased, and otherwise be emotionally and physically affected by their actions and they, in turn, act accordingly within the limits of their abilities to do so. Neither "pet" dogs nor rats bite their owners with abandon nor destroy their homes. This isn't just "conditioned behavior," but rather is the result of a more global understanding that humans, like them, can feel; and thus can be rewarded or made to suffer.

This is a very important and valuable property to people. it is so valuable that, when members of our own species fail to demonstrate it, we imprison them or even kill them! Jails and prisons are full of people who either lack empathy, or lack the ability to act upon it. What then does it say of us if we treat animals in ways that demonstrate a lack of understanding or respect for their feelings - for their ability to suffer or experience pleasure?

The answer is that it would, at first glance, say that we were either sociopaths, profoundly ignorant of the nature of animals, or taken over by some ideology which induced a state of perceptual blindness to their plight. Thus, what I am saying here is that I agree that it is neither reasonable nor moral (within our value structure as empathetic beings) to regard animals as unfeeling automatons, let alone treat them as such.

However, there is a problem with this approach to dealing both with our fellow humans and with other animals as the sole guide to our actions. The problem is, put simply, this: The native state of man and beast is one of unfathomable suffering.

Next, he explains ethics in a way that seems to correspond with a lot of Eliezer's writing: 

The central moral kernel of almost every religion is that we are born into a world of injustice and suffering. There can be little quibbling with that observation, since everywhere we turn we see living systems whose very structure brings them into "conflict" with their environment and causes enormous suffering. This is how it has always been. It is the reality of our existence in this universe. Evolution, the beautiful star studded sky at night, the cool lapping ocean - they don't give a damn about anything, least of all a mouse in a cage with cancer or a woman with her breast rotting off. And as far we can tell, they never will.

The best the universe has done so far is to produce us - creatures who both can and do care about injustice and suffering. If you believe in a Grand Design, or some other teleological explanation that results in universal justice, then, go to the mirror right now and take a long hard look, because buddy, you are it - you are as good as it has gotten, so far.

Then, unless you are cretin or a fool, or both, realize that suffering and injustice are both inescapable contemporary and future realities which you have to deal with rationally (or not) as you choose. You do not get to choose Door Number 3, which is "no suffering and injustice." In fact, even you kill yourself straightaway to avoid inconveniencing a mouse with a plow, the suffering and injustice will continue to march on, even for billions and billions of years.

There are no easy choices.

The best you can do is to choose carefully and rationally what kinds of misery you will inflict and to work, relentlessly, to minimize it and to make the universe a more just place. Those decisions will be informed by your values - by what you hold most worthy and in highest esteem. You are, of course, free to choose mice over men, a hunter-gatherer life over that of an agrarian, the world of the primitive or technological civilization.

Next, he tackles questions about whether animal research is, on net, beneficial: 

However, what you are not free to do, at least not around me, is to spew out lies and moral falsehoods about the supposed real nature of the universe and the real consequences of the choices you (and others like you) make. If you think that animal's have rights in the classical and real sense that has historically been applied to humans, then I will call you a liar and a moral blackguard who would, and has, condemned not only countless humans to unnecessary suffering and death, but countless animals whom humans value highly (our companion animals and livestock) as well - because much of veterinary medicine is a direct result of animal research.

If you argue that humans should be used in research, there I would agree with you. Most of the pharmacological research done with rodents is junk science which has led to few real medical advances. But be advised that such research will be ugly and terrifying and very likely costly in some meaningful proportion to the benefit it yields.

I am sorry to be so harsh, but technological civilization has robbed most of the Western world of any sense of reality - of how the universe works and of just how much suffering accrues from every frozen ready meal and every lipstick or plastic bottle of beverage consumed.

That dreamy, soft-bellied state of unreality is intolerable and it is also incompatible with our continued existence as a technological species, and probably as a species at all.

And it is most certainly incompatible with any hope we can currently see of the universe becoming a more just, decent and humane place.

Thus, I see your feelings and attitudes as profoundly incompatible both with your long term personal survival, and that of our species. As such, they evoke in me a feeling of revulsion and strong feeling of anger for the damage they have already caused to biomedical research - and will likely continue to cause.

Next, he goes into details of what animal lifespan research entails: 

I would also like to note that "the worst" of animal research in terms of inflicting suffering is not the acute experimental work conducted by cryonicists and most other mainstream medical research, but rather is to be found in the work of gerontologists conducting life span studies on rodents and primates. Research which virtually all on this list serve avidly lap up and never criticize - even though much, if not most of it, is junk science.

I can say, without reservation, that of all the pain, horror and cruelty that I have inflicted, either inadvertently, or as an anticipated consequence of research, by far the most cruel work I've ever (done or) observed is that of the gerontologist doing lifespan studies. ... 

The fact is, that aging animals get a dreadful array of truly horrible and disgusting pathologies and, because they are not humans receiving human medical care, they die in fantastically gruesome ways more often than not. ...

Rodents often develop not only mammary neoplasms [breast cancers], but tumors of the food pouches and buccal mucosa [inside lining of the cheeks]. Since there is no surgical intervention, these masses often grow to colossal size, ulcerate, break down and fungate. A common cause of death is starvation, which is truly terrible to watch. Sometimes, the animals lose the ability to drink, in which case death is mercifully faster and less painful as a result of dehydration.

The visceral and bone pain that results from tumor invasion of vital organs, the skeleton and joints must be unimaginable. And cancers kills the majority of animals in gerontological lifespan studies. I've seen animals languish in their cages for weeks or months being slowly consumed by lesions so revolting I could barely force myself to handle them in order to document their decline.

And of what the lucky ones who don't die of cancer? Are they in rodent care homes in tiny beds with tiny egg crate mattresses with a staff of rodents careers to lick their bums and turn them? Hardly. As animals age and develop spondylosis [spine osteoarthritis] and sarcopenia [age-related loss of muscle mass], they become unable to reach their anuses and urogential areas with their mouths. As a result, they cannot clean themselves, and they develop an ammonia-generating, bacteria infested crusting of urea and feces in these delicate areas, which, not infrequently results in ulceration. They are often blind from cataracts, and are, of necessity, usually housed one to a cage (they have a propensity to cannibalism, especially if calorie restricted), so they die alone, slowly, most often of starvation and dehydration.

Of course, the first question that likely comes to most peoples' minds upon hearing this a tale of horror is, "For the love of god man, why don't you euthanize such poor creatures, or at least medicate them for pain?" The answer is that you can't, not without developing a whole new, complex and costly model which has highly specific (and uniform) and almost completely NONSUBJECTIVE algorithms for when euthanasia should take place. And, you can forget about knowing what the "maximum lifespan" is, because it is flat out impossible to tell how long a moribund and likely suffering animal will live. I've seen animals I thought were certain to die within days survive for MONTHS! And so has every other experienced gerontological researcher.

That is the reality gerontological lifespan research.

So, you want to trespass on the territory of the gods and life forever, or even just another 50 or 500 years longer and you want to do it whilst being a nice guy? Give me a break!

The ending is poignant, and I think an excusable violation of Godwin's law

Cryonics has largely been taken over by this moral world-view and with an understandable, if inexcusable accompanying moral cowardice which dictates that we hide our animal research and cower in fear because the "Animal Rights" people will attack us (and by implication our poorly protected patients stored in vulnerable, unhardened facilities). This is the direct path to the Dark Ages or to the Soviet, or to the Third Reich, which was ironically, the only nation-state to completely ban animal research because of its cruelty and inhumanity. Instead, they built concentration camps and turned loose the likes of Holzhoner, Rascher, Mengle, Whichtman, Caluberg and countless others like them on humans, who, unlike animals, have the rich perceptual ability to comprehend their own mortality and to contemplate, at length, the certain inevitability of their fate.

Darwin does not mention it in this essay, but he is a vegetarian, and his dog is cryopreserved at Alcor. 

Comment author: gwern 17 June 2012 09:46:04PM *  8 points [-]

I actually don't think this is all that useful for testing the preservation abilities of cryonics. C. elegans have vastly different life cycles from humans and the ability to freeze them isn't that generalizable. See Casio's comment above: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/d4a/brief_response_to_kalla724_on_preserving_personal/6u7e

On the contrary, I think that given Casio's comment, such an experiment constitutes powerful evidence if it finds that nematodes don't remember after freezing - evidence for falsifying cryonics.

If it finds that nematodes do remember, then by conservation of expectations of course that's only a little bit of evidence that cryonics is preserving the necessary information, but it's still worth doing. (Cryonics costs a lot, so the VoI is high.)

Comment author: Synaptic 17 June 2012 11:17:25PM 2 points [-]

There is an experiment testing something similar to this in rats. They retain their ability to navigate a maze following hypothermia. Andjus, 1956:

The differences in retention of the maze habit among experimental and control groups were very small and in no instance were they statistically significant, although there was a consistent trend towards poorer retention following hypothermia. These small differences may be functions of the technique used to reduce deep body temperature rather than of the effects of hypothermia per se.

These results are based upon observations of the behaviour of non-hibernating, homoiothermic animals. With such animals, extreme hypothermia, such as that employed in the present study, results in complete arrest of heart beat, circulation, and respiration. It also suppresses electrical activity in the brain and in our animals cerebral activity may have been arrested for as long as 13 to z hours. Within the limits of our experimental procedure we have failed to find evidence that arrest of these vital metabolic processes as a result of hypothermia produces any very serious, permanent effects on the animal's behaviour once i t has been successfully reanimated. If, as previous writers have suggested, severe hypothermia can be used to “… stop all nerve impulses in the brain momentarily …” (Gerard, 1953), our results are difficult to explain if long-term memory is dependent upon the continuous activity of the brain.

Comment author: David_Gerard 17 June 2012 08:20:39PM *  2 points [-]

Yes, that first one is the experiment I thought was obvious (I was about to come back and edit my comment to detail this, but you responded first).

I think it would teach us whether freezing and reviving with learning preserved was actually possible or not. This strikes me as important and useful information. That C.elegans has some inbuilt ability to survive freezing would confound it slightly, but I still think it's a necessary thing to at least look at.

There is next to no funding for cryonics research.

That little? (I can believe it, though.)

Has this experiment, or something like it, even been postulated anywhere in the past 20 years, or is it not as obvious to everyone else as it is to you and me?

And massive regulations against doing animal-based experiments without government approval.

I really doubt the scientific exploitation of C.elegans is as hard as that would imply, compared to the numbers of mice and rats killed daily for science.

Comment author: Synaptic 17 June 2012 09:07:10PM *  2 points [-]

I think it would teach us whether freezing and reviving with learning preserved was actually possible or not. This strikes me as important and useful information. That C.elegans has some inbuilt ability to survive freezing would confound it slightly, but I still think it's a necessary thing to at least look at.

I agree it would be useful. My wording was less charitable than it should have been. Still, the second test seems more definitive.

I really doubt the scientific exploitation of C.elegans is as hard as that would imply, compared to the numbers of mice and rats killed daily for science.

True, C. elegans experiments wouldn't be hard to do.

Has this experiment, or something like it, even been postulated anywhere in the past 20 years, or is it not as obvious to everyone else as it is to you and me?

There are lots of worm people and I don't know that much about the field. For all I know the experiment has already been done.

You should be a scientist!

That little? (I can believe it, though.)

As far as I know there are currently three labs in the world researching cryonics.

1) The de Wolf's and Ben Best, researching at the lab they made, Advanced Neural Sciences. Their budget is tiny, $20,000/yr (pdf). And this seems to be almost all private. But this is the best out there.

2) Joao Pedro de Magalhaes. His lab was just funded by a public fundraiser ($12,000) to do an RNA-sequencing experiment to learn about mechanisms of cryoprotectant toxicity.

3) Brian Wowk and Greg Fahy at 21CM. They invented M22 and have done most of the useful work over the past 10 years. And even their website says,

Although our research is of great interest to those who are interested in cryonics, 21st Century Medicine is not involved in cryonics.

So, compared to most other fields there is nobody researching this. Which annoys people like Mike Darwin and Ken Hayworth so much. This could work, but we don't know, and we as a society are hardly trying to find out.

Comment author: David_Gerard 17 June 2012 01:23:22PM *  2 points [-]

Why would I not?

So why, in twenty years, has no cryonicist apparently done the experiment? How has this not happened yet?

Comment author: Synaptic 17 June 2012 08:12:14PM 2 points [-]

the experiment to do is obvious

Two experiments:

a) Teach a bunch of C. elegans the tap-withdrawal reflex, freeze them, thaw them, and see if they still know it. This is what I'm assuming you were referring to. I actually don't think this is all that useful for testing the preservation abilities of cryonics. C. elegans have vastly different life cycles from humans and the ability to freeze them isn't that generalizable. See Casio's comment above: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/d4a/brief_response_to_kalla724_on_preserving_personal/6u7e

b) Teach a bunch of C. elegans the tap-withdrawal reflex, freeze them, and do cryo-electron microscopy on them to determine the distribution and density of vesicles and receptors at the key synapses involved. Feed that data as parameters to a simulation and see whether the simulation reflects the tap-withdrawal learning experience of that particular C. elegans, as compared to controls. This will help shed light on whether personal identity is inferable from the kind of structural data that might be preserved by vitrification in human brains.

The experiment I prefer is the second. It will take time.

So why, in twenty years, has no cryonicist apparently done the experiment?

There is next to no funding for cryonics research. And massive regulations against doing animal-based experiments without government approval.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 16 June 2012 06:51:52PM *  1 point [-]

My main point is that kalla724 is too pessimistic about cryonics. We don't have a lot of answers to important questions and therefore can't say with so much confidence (p = 10^-22) either way.

Saw a recent youtube with Aubrey De Grey where he expressed confidence in cryonics, and said a lot of recent progress had been made.

As for p=10^-22, that's an unserious number. That can only come about analytically, premised on your assumptions. Ask yourself which assumptions, proven false, would overturn your conclusions. Are you confident in them with p>1-10^-22? I say no.

Jaynes had a nice practice in this regard. Always include a "something else I don't know about" as an hypothesis in hypothesis testing, and assign some reasonable value for your ignorance of how the universe runs. That will keep your calculated confidence in your other hypotheses from reaching absurd levels.

Creationists will claim that it is impossible for evolution to have produced such and such feature in living creatures. Really? You've enumerated all the possible things that could happen in the universe, and understand the functioning of the universe so well, that you can rule it out and call it impossible? They don't just believe in God, they believe in their own godhood.

Comment author: Synaptic 16 June 2012 11:03:54PM *  1 point [-]

Do you have a link to the video?

ETA:

As for p=10^-22, that's an unserious number

I agree. It's not my number. It's kalla724's. It would be difficult for me to assign a precise numerical probability.

Comment author: David_Gerard 16 June 2012 07:31:35AM *  9 points [-]

AIUI, C. elegans has actually been frozen and revived. So if they learn, as you describe, then the experiment to do is obvious.

Comment author: Synaptic 16 June 2012 11:02:42PM -1 points [-]

I am pleased to see that you agree that these ideas are testable.

Comment author: CasioTheSane 16 June 2012 10:03:30AM *  15 points [-]

Nematodes have evolved a survival strategy under which they regularly undergo freezing with their own natural cryoprotectant. We can expect that unlike humans, every protein and system has undergone long term selection for cryogenic stability.

Comment author: Synaptic 16 June 2012 05:23:22PM 1 point [-]

This is a good point. However, the post only discusses the substrates of personal identity in C. elegans.

Brief response to kalla724 on preserving personal identity with vitrification

8 Synaptic 16 June 2012 01:28AM

About a month ago kalla724 posted a number of comments on this post, many of which were highly upvoted.

Synopsis: I) I think that kalla724 is too pessimistic about the practice of cryopreservation to preserve personal identity, because we don't know what level of synapse/active zone/protein structure is preserved in human brains, and we also don't know what level is required for personal identity. II) I think kalla724 is wrong about the required detail necessary to simulate a C. elegans. This is testable in the relatively near-term, and the results of that test might yield insight into whose argument in point I is stronger. 

I

kalla724's main argument: it is not possible (p = 10^-22) that cryonics will preserve personal identity, because replacing water with cryoprotectant will cause too much damage to proteins and lipids in the brain.

My view is that kalla724 is too pessimistic. To find a specific example to expand upon this intuition, I searched for "c elegans memory". I chose one of the first reviews in the results: http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/17/4/191.full, published in 2010 by Ardiel and Rankin. Here's their first example: 

Rankin et al. (1990) were the first to characterize learning and memory in C. elegans. They studied plasticity of the “tap-withdrawal response” (TWR), a behavior whereby worms swim backward in response to a nonlocalized mechanical stimulus generated by tapping the Petri plate containing the worm. The magnitude of this reversal response is around 1 mm (roughly the length of the worm), but this can change with experience. Repeated administration of the tap results in a decrement of both the amplitude and the frequency of the response

The specific neurons mediating this are known: 

Using the circuits described by Chalfie et al. (1985) in conjunction with the neural wiring diagram (White et al. 1986), Wicks and Rankin (1995) identified the mechanosensory cells (ALM, AVM, PLM, and PVD) and interneurons (AVD, AVA, AVB, PVC, and DVA) mediating the TWR.

Through more science, they found that: 

the locus of mechanosensory habituation is in a part of the circuit unique to the TWR, i.e., the touch cells and/or the synapses between the touch cells and the interneurons. Now the hunt for the underlying molecular mechanism could begin.

There is some evidence for how the short-term component of the tap-withdrawal response plasticity. This is it: 

repeated activation of the touch cells results in autophosphorylation of the SHW-3–MPS-1 complex, thus diminishing K+ flux and prolonging the duration of mechanoreceptor potentials. This would slow the recovery from inactivation of EGL-19 (the L-type calcium channel mediating touch-evoked calcium currents) (Suzuki et al. 2003) and dampen cell excitability

This means that the complexes of proteins, working together, add phosphate groups to themselves as a post-translational modification. Each individual complex functions as a potassium ion channel, so changing its structure can alter the excitability of the cell.

Whether vitrification will preserve this specific post-translational modification is, as far as I know, an open question. The current cryoprotectant solution, M22, is pretty physiologic, which means that it functions similarly to water. But, we don't have this data. 

It's likely that when the protein complex undergoes autophosphorylation, other changes occur in the cell as well. If this led to changes in the cell's epigenome, which is very common, and the structure of the epigenome is retained by the cryopreservation, then the cell's epigenome could allow reverse inference of the state of its ion channels. We also don't have this data. 

The authors also discuss evidence for the long-term component of the tap-withdrawal response plasticity: 

the AMPA-type glutamate receptor subunit, GLR-1, was required for long-term habituation—glr-1 loss-of-function mutants habituated but did not retain decremented responses ... long-term habituation was associated with a significant reduction in the size, but not the number, of the GLR-1::GFP clusters in the posterior ventral nerve cord

This means that the number and distribution of a well characterized protein at the synapses of cells is highly correlated with the strength of the memory. This is consistent with current paradigms of long-term memory

Under ideal cryopreservation conditions, synaptic vesicles and receptor distributions are likely retained, even if some of the proteins may be a bit denatured. The data is far from perfect here, either. 

It's also important to stress that this only occurs under ideal conditions. Given the current practice of cryonics, cryoprotectant will not reach many or most areas of the brain. In these cases, there is a large amount of ice damage and the information is much more likely to be irretrievable. 

II

kalla724 says:

Uploading a particular C. elegans, so that the simulation reflects learning and experiences of that particular animal? Orders of magnitude more difficult. Might be possible, if we have really good technology and are looking at the living animal.

kalla724's requirement is that we look at live C. elegans to simulate them. But, the evidence above indicates a good correlation between AMPA receptor distribution and tap-withdrawal reflex. And there is good reason to believe that these features are retained by vitrification under ideal conditions. 

So, it seems to me that if you were to emulate a particular C elegans, you could add more receptors (or just up the strength parameter) at those synapses, and thus mimic the plasticity of the tap-withdrawal reflex. Looking at live animals would not be required. 

One more note:

Extrapolating results on personal identity from C. elegans to humans is not ideal. If the results are biased in one direction, we should expect more redundancy in mammalian neural systems than there are in nematode ones, because mammals have so many more brain cells. 

Edit 6/15: fixed format of quotes. 

Edit 6/16: added synopsis to clarify main points. 

Comment author: jaibot 15 June 2012 06:40:51PM *  1 point [-]

Thank you for gathering these. Sadly, much of this reinforces my fears.

Ken Hayworth is not convinced - that's his entire motivation for the brain preservation prize.

“Do current cryonic suspension techniques preserve the precise wiring of the brain’s neurons?” The prevailing assumption among my colleagues is that current techniques do not. It is for this reason my colleagues reject cryonics as a legitimate medical practice. Their assumption is based mostly upon media hearsay from a few vocal cryobiologists with an axe to grind against cryonics. To try to get a real answer to this question I searched the available literature and interviewed cryonics researchers and practitioners. What I found was a few papers showing selected electron micrographs of distorted but recognizable neural tissue (for example, Darwin et al. 1995, Lemler et al. 2004). Although these reports are far more promising than most scientists would expect, they are still far from convincing to me and my colleagues in neuroscience.

Rafal Smigrodzki is more promising, and a neurologist to boot. I'll be looking for anything else he's written on the subject.

Mike Darwin - I've been reading Chronopause, and he seems authoritative to the instance-of-layman-that-is-me, but I'd like confirmation from some bio/medical professionals that he is making sense. His predictions of imminent-societal-doom have lowered my estimation of his generalized rationality (NSFW: http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/08/09/fucked/). Additionally, he is by trade a dialysis technician, and to my knowledge does not hold a medical or other advanced degree in the biological sciences. This doesn't necessarily rule out him being an expert, but it does reduce my confidence in his expertise. Lastly: His 'endorsement' may be summarized as "half of Alcor patients probably suffered significant damage, and CI is basically useless".

Aubrey de Grey holds a BA in Computer Science and a Doctorate of Philosophy for his Mitochondrial Free Radical Theory. He has been active in longevity research for a while, but he comes from an information sciences background and I don't see many/any Bio/Med professionals/academics endorsing his work or positions.

Ravin Jain - like Rafal, this looks promising and I will be following up on it.

Sebastian Seung stated plainly in his most recent book that he fully expects to die. "I feel quite confident that you, dear reader, will die, and so will I." This seems implicitly extremely skeptical of current cryonics techniques, to say the least.

I've actually contacted kalla724 after reading their comments on LW placing extremely low odds on cryonics working. She believes, and presents in a convincing-to-the-layman-that-is-me manner, a convincing argument that the physical brain probably can't be made operational again even at the limit of physical possibility. I remain unsure of whether he is similarly skeptical of cryonics as a means to avoid information-death (i.e., cryonics as a step towards uploading), and have not yet followed up with him given that she seems pretty busy.

Summary:

  • Neuro MD/PhDs endorsing cryonics: Rafal Smigrodzki, Ravin Jain

  • People without Neuro-MD/PhDs endorsing cryonics: Mike Darwin, Aubrey de Grey

  • Neuro MD/PhDs who have engaged with cryonics and are skeptical of current protocols (+/- very): Ken Hayworth, Sabastian Seung, kalla724.

Comment author: Synaptic 15 June 2012 07:55:16PM *  4 points [-]

It's useful to distinguish between types of skepticism, something lsparrish has discussed: http://lesswrong.com/lw/cbe/two_kinds_of_cryonics/.

kalla724 assigns a probability estimate of p = 10^-22 to any kind of cryonics preserving personal identity. On the other hand, Darwin, Seung, and Hayworth are skeptical of current protocols, for good reasons. But they are also trying to test and improve the protocols (reducing ischemic time) and expect that alternatives might work.

From my perspective you are overweighting credentials. The reason you need to pay attention to neuroscientists is because they might have knowledge of the substrates of personal identity.

kalla724 has a phd in molecular biophysics. Arguably, molecular biophysics is itself an information science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_biophysics. Depending upon kalla724's research, kalla724 could have knowledge relevant to the substrates of personal identity, but the credential itself means little.

In my opinion, the more important credential is knowledge of cryobiology. There are skeptics, such as Kenneth Storey, http://www4.carleton.ca/jmc/catalyst/2004/sf/km/km-cryonics.html. There are also proponents, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Fahy. See http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/coldwar.html.

ETA:

Sebastian Seung stated plainly in his most recent book that he fully expects to die. "I feel quite confident that you, dear reader, will die, and so will I." This seems implicitly extremely skeptical of current cryonics techniques, to say the least.

Semantics are tricky because "death" is poorly defined and people use it in different ways. See the post and comments here: http://www.geripal.org/2012/05/mostly-dead-vs-completely-dead.html.

As Seung notes in his book:

Irreversibility is not a timeless concept; it depends on currently available technology. What is irreversible today might become reversible in the future. For most of human history, a person was dead when respiration and heartbeat stopped. But now such changes are sometimes reversible. It is now possible to restore breathing, restart the heartbeat, or even transplant a healthy heart to replace a defective one.

View more: Prev | Next