Comment author: turchin 29 October 2015 09:30:38AM -2 points [-]

It would also interesting to note that the program can't run and optimise itself simultaneously. Probably it need to copy its source code, edit it, than terminate itself and start the new code. Or edit only subagent which is not in use in current moment.

Comment author: Thomas 29 October 2015 10:53:12AM 0 points [-]

the program can't run and optimise itself simultaneously

I think, the hot updating is to consider as well.

Comment author: username2 14 October 2015 04:29:44AM 4 points [-]

To be fair, it seems that recently almost everyone can speak before a some kind of UN panel.

Comment author: Thomas 15 October 2015 09:22:34AM 1 point [-]

Which is good. The last thing I want is the UN to mess with AI. So, if it is just another UN panel, I don't have to worry.

Comment author: philh 13 October 2015 08:05:50PM 12 points [-]

I have an intuition that if we implemented universal basic income, the prices of necessities would rise to the point where people without other sources of income would still be in poverty. I assume there are UBI supporters who've spent more time thinking about that question than I have, and I'm interested in their responses.

(I have some thoughts myself on the general directions responses might take, but I haven't fleshed them out, and I might not care enough to do so.)

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 08:48:21PM -3 points [-]

I have an intuition that if we implemented universal basic income, the prices of necessities would rise to the point where people without other sources of income would still be in poverty.

I think you are right.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 October 2015 07:51:40PM 0 points [-]

I don't give a damn about infinity. If it is doable, why not? But is it? That's the only question.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, especially given your earlier focus on whether infinity exists and whether using it in physics is akin to religion. I'm also not sure what "it" is in your sentence, but it seems to be the supertask in question. I'm not sure in that context what you mean by "doable."

Then, a supertask mixes the infinite set of naturals and we are witnessing "the irresistible force acting on an unmovable object". What the Hell will happen? Will we have finite numbers on the first 1000 places? We should, but bigger, no matter which will be.

The "irresistible force" is just an empty word. And so is "unmovable object". And so is "infinity" and so is "supertask".

I'm not at all sure what this means. Can you please stop using analogies can make a specific example of how to formalize this contradiction in ZFC?

The topic is also exercised here:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=13&threadID=2278300&messageID=7498035

This seems to be essentially the same argument and it seems like the exact same problem: an assumption that an intuitive limit must exist. Limits don't always exist when you want them to, and we have a lot of theorems about when a point-wise limit makes sense. None of them apply here.

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 08:45:49PM -3 points [-]

Just answer me a simple question.

How do the first 1000 naturals look like, after mixing supertask described above has finished its job,

You may say that this supertask is impossible.

You may say that there is no set of all naturals.

Whatever you think about it. Everything else is pretty redundant.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 13 October 2015 05:33:16PM 1 point [-]

There is an argument there, but it certainly is not one based on ZFC, since no axiom of set theory says anything about time or what can be accomplished in time.

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 06:00:02PM -3 points [-]

So you say, ZFC has nothing to do with time? Time in physics is uncovered in ZFC?

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 October 2015 03:58:13PM 1 point [-]

This is not at all an attempt to banish infinity in any general sense.

Of course it is. Nothing infinite has been spotted so far.

I'm not sure how your sentence is a response to my sentence.

This is rhetoric without content.

Is it? Is this same "rhetoric" against aliens also without a content? If I say that people want aliens, because they have lost angels, is this really without a content?

Not only that there is no infinite God, even infinite sets are probably just a miracle.

Generally, yes, the content level is pretty low. It essentially amounts to Bulverism, where one is focusing on claimed intents and motives rather than focusing on the substantive issue of whether there's an inconsistency in PA or ZFC that can arise due to issues with supertasks or other ideas related to infinity.

It may well be that specific people or groups are adopted aliens in a way that is essentially replacing deities. The Raelians and other New Age groups certainly fall into that categoyr. But it is a mistake to therefore claim that in general, people believe in aliens as a replacement for belief in a deity. And it is an even more serious mistake to make such claims about infinite sets. If you see physicists praying to infinite sets, or claiming that infinite sets are responsible for the creation of the universe or humanity, or claim that infinite sets will somehow save us, or claim that infinite sets have an agency to them, or claim that infinite sets have a special mystery and majesty to them that merits worship, or if they start wars with or excommunicate people who don't believe in infinite sets or believe in a different type of infinite set, then there would be an argument.

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 04:27:29PM *  -5 points [-]

I don't give a damn about infinity. If it is doable, why not? But is it? That's the only question.

Then, a supertask mixes the infinite set of naturals and we are witnessing "the irresistible force acting on an unmovable object". What the Hell will happen? Will we have finite numbers on the first 1000 places? We should, but bigger, no matter which will be.

The "irresistible force" is just an empty word. And so is "unmovable object". And so is "infinity" and so is "supertask".

Empty words. So every theory which encompasses them is flawed. More than likely.

And yes, supertask can be established in ZFC.

The topic is also exercised here:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?forumID=13&threadID=2278300&messageID=7498035

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 October 2015 02:15:46PM 3 points [-]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, and in so far as I can understand it doesn't seem to be true. Physicists use the real numbers all the time which are an infinite set.

https://physics.aps.org/articles/v2/70

The problem there is that certain specific models of physics end up giving infinite values for measurable quantities - this is a known problem and has been an area of active research since early work with renormalization in the 1930s. This is not at all an attempt to banish infinity in any general sense.

Now, when there in no God, the Infinity is its substitute, most people would love to exist. But it's just another blunder.

This is rhetoric without content.

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 03:37:18PM -4 points [-]

This is not at all an attempt to banish infinity in any general sense.

Of course it is. Nothing infinite has been spotted so far.

This is rhetoric without content.

Is it? Is this same "rhetoric" against aliens also without a content? If I say that people want aliens, because they have lost angels, is this really without a content?

Not only that there is no infinite God, even infinite sets are probably just a miracle.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 October 2015 12:56:55PM 0 points [-]

Physics is only good, when you expel all the infinities out of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, and in so far as I can understand it doesn't seem to be true. Physicists use the real numbers all the time which are an infinite set. They use integration and differentiation which involves limits. So what do you mean?

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 01:50:17PM *  -4 points [-]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, and in so far as I can understand it doesn't seem to be true. Physicists use the real numbers all the time which are an infinite set.

https://physics.aps.org/articles/v2/70

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2015/02/20/infinity-ruining-physics/#.Vh0LnHqqpBc

Now, when there in no God, the Infinity is its substitute, most people would love to exist. But it's just another blunder.

Comment author: MrMind 13 October 2015 08:20:08AM 0 points [-]

Yes. It's not the Choice axiom which is problematic, but the infinity itself. So it doesn't mater if ZF or ZFC.

I doubt that any proof in FAI will use infinitary methods.

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 09:41:15AM *  -3 points [-]

Physics is only good, when you expel all the infinities out of it.

Even more so for a subset of physics, such as FAI or molecular dynamics or something.

Well, some of us think that this should be applied to the mathematics itself.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 12 October 2015 08:41:10PM 1 point [-]

Wildberger's complaints are well known, and frankly not taking very seriously. The most positive thing one can say about it is that some of the ideas in his rational trignometry do have some interesting math behind them, but that's it. Pretty much no mathematican who has listened to what he has to say have taken any of it seriously.

Comment author: Thomas 13 October 2015 07:05:57AM -1 points [-]

Sure, I know he is not taken very seriously. That is his own point, too.

In the time of Carl Sagan, in the year 1986 or so, I became an anti Saganist. I realized that his million civilization in our galaxy alone is an utter bullshit. Most likely only one exists.

Every single astro-biologist or biologist would have said to a dissident like myself - you don't understand evolution, sire, it's mandatory!

20 years later, on this site, Rare Earth is a dominant position. Or at least - no aliens position.

On the National Geographic channel and elsewhere, you still listen "how previously unexpected number of Earth like planets will be detected".

I am not afraid of mathematicians more than of astrobiologists. Largely unimpressed.

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