Comment author: skeptical_lurker 13 March 2016 06:02:34PM 1 point [-]

I agree, and I am trying to use words in a precise manner. Trump is not a Nazi. The Golden Dawn are.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 13 March 2016 06:33:44PM 1 point [-]

LOL. Seriously, do you have any more evidence beyond "their symbol sotra looks like a swastika". How about you try looking for the factions in Greece using Nazi-style tactics, like say arresting their opponents on vague trumped up charges. Hint: it's not Golden Dawn.

Comment author: Viliam 12 March 2016 03:01:48PM *  5 points [-]

I lived in a communist regime until I was 13, and my general impression was that everything was mostly okay and everyone was mostly happy. That was partially a childhood naiveté, but also partially an effect of censorship. Even if I was dissatisfied with something, I didn't attribute it specifically to the political regime, but to failures of specific people, and the failures of bureaucracy which is a necessary evil of a civilized society. All problems seemed like "first-world problems". (Actually, attributing all failures to individuals was explicitly encouraged by the regime. Assuming the individuals were not powerful communists, of course.)

I had absolutely no idea that there were people around me who had their family members kidnapped by the secret police and tortured, sometimes to death, for "crimes" such as having a different opinion and debating it with other similar "criminals". I didn't understand why all documents about me emphasised that I had "workers' lineage" when in fact both my parents had university education; but I assumed it was just another weird bureaucratic way of speech. (It actually meant that I was free from the hereditary sin of "bourgeois lineage" i.e. having an entrepreneur among my ancestors. People with "bourgeois lineage" were not allowed to study at universities, and couldn't get any good job as long as someone else with "workers' lineage" was available for the same job.)

After learning all this information (and realizing that it actually explained a few weird things that I previously noticed but didn't have a good explanation for), I couldn't see the situation with the same eyes anymore.

The important thing is that this knowledge is now a public knowledge, which means that not only "I know" and "you know", but also "I know that you know" and "you know that I know that you know", et cetera.

If there is only one person "making problems", it is easy for the regime to get rid of them, while maintaining the façade. After midnight, a group of men in black coats with guns will knock on their door and take them away. Worst case, the family will never hear about them again, officially. Unofficially, sometimes a stranger on the street will later tell them to not expect their family member back because he's dead; and no, you won't even receive the body for burial, because fuck you, you anticommunist filth! (Also the relatives will get written in their documents "a relative of a suspected traitor", which means: forget ever studying at a university or getting a good job.)

If a group of people "makes problems" publicly, the police will quickly take them away, and no media will ever mention the story. But if a large group of people makes a public demonstration at the center of a big city, and if they refuse to surrender quickly and silently to the police, then too many people will notice that "something happened". The regime now cannot deal with the problem by usual silence. They will probably publish an official explanation, something like: "A small group of traitors paid by Americans was trying to disrupt our peace and prosperity, but don't worry, our brave policemen have eliminated the threat. Please stay calm and don't listen to any rumors; also report all suspicious behavior and rumor spreading to the police." But even this kinda admits that some people have some objections, so the façade of "we are all one big happy family" starts cracking apart. And people are too curious, so various rumors will start spreading anyway.

On the other hand, even this public knowledge can be reversed. One should never underestimate the capacity of motivated people to deny anything. A few years later, when the shock of seeing the true face of regime has faded, if some sympathizers of the previous regime remained at power, they can create a synchronized denial. All they have to do is to start saying publicly: "This never happened; actually this is all merely American propaganda". At the beginning everyone knows it's a lie, but now also people who want to turn a blind eye to everything know that actually there is a socially acceptable way to deny everything; that they are not a powerless minority. So they start repeating the denial as a way signal belonging to their tribe. And their children will grow up actually believing that nothing bad happened, and that everything is merely a propaganda. And it's just a question of time until people start saying: "Well, why don't we get rid of the American propaganda now, and return to the glorious old days?".

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 13 March 2016 04:13:09AM 3 points [-]

What you describe is the winding-down days of communism, during it's hayday the arrests and torture didn't happen in the middle of the night, but in broad daylight, to cheering crowds. This phenomenon, not limited to communist states, works as follows:

The official line is not that everybody is happy and everything is perfect, but that everything would be perfect if it wasn't for the rightists/heretics/sexists/racists/etc. (depending on the society). The insidious thing about this is that anybody who has a different opinion and debates it can be charged with rightism, and is in fact guilty by definition. Heck anyone arrested, even if he wasn't originally a rightist has almost no way to defend himself without making the charge true. The only chance he has is demonstrating his loyalty by being as fanatical as possible at the next rally.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 March 2016 02:08:00AM 2 points [-]

The Civ 5 AI does cheat insofar as it doesn't have to deal with the fog of war, IIRC.

The XCOM AI seems to cheat because they've don't report the actual probability.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 05:52:49AM 4 points [-]

The Civ 5 AI does cheat insofar as it doesn't have to deal with the fog of war, IIRC.

Not just that, especially on higher difficulty levels.

Comment author: hairyfigment 11 March 2016 08:02:33AM 0 points [-]

Glad you asked, Eugine:

The party denies that it has any official connection to Neo-Nazism. Although it uses the Roman salute, a salute used by the Italian Fascist and German National Socialist movements, it claims to draw its inspiration in this primarily from the 4th of August Regime established by Ioannis Metaxas...Likewise, the Golden Dawn's meander symbol, while sometimes compared to the National Socialist Swastika, is according to Golden Dawn a symbol drawn from Greek art, which the party sees as representing bravery and eternal struggle.[18][128]

Ilias Kasidiaris, a spokesman for Golden Dawn, wrote an article that was published in Golden Dawn magazine on 20 April 2011, in which he said, "What would the future of Europe and the whole modern world be like if World War II hadn't stopped the renewing route of National Socialism? Certainly, fundamental values which mainly derive from ancient Greek culture, would be dominant in every state and would define the fate of peoples. Romanticism as a spiritual movement and classicism would prevail against the decadent subculture that corroded the white man. Extreme materialism would have been discarded, giving its place to spiritual exaltation". In the same article, Adolf Hitler is characterized as a "great social reformer" and "military genius".[129]

In an article published in 1987 in the Golden Dawn magazine titled "Hitler for 1000 years", its editor Michaloliakos [see below] showed his support for Nazism and white supremacy.[130] Specifically he wrote, "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".[130] He ends the article by writing "1987, 42 years later, with our thought and soul given to the last great battle, with our thought and soul given to the black and red banners, with our thought and soul given to the memory of our great Leader, we raise our right hand up, we salute the Sun and with the courage, that is compelled by our military honor and our National Socialist duty we shout full of passion, faith to the future and our visions: HEIL HITLER!".[130]

...The founder of the party, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, appeared to give a Nazi salute in the Athens city council. He claims that it was merely "the salute of the national youth organisation of Ioannis Metaxas".[128][136]

Of course, society normally finds it easy to recognize and ostracize such blatantly dishonest Nazism. It doesn't create any actual confusion - unless people have gone out of their way to weaken society's immune system, eg by deliberately signalling Nazism when the reality is more obscure.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 01:34:37AM 2 points [-]

Of course, society normally finds it easy to recognize and ostracize such blatantly dishonest Nazism.

What do you mean by "normally" and can you find any examples of society that actually operated like you describe? Keep in mind the word "Nazi" was already being applied to anything and everything the speaker disliked as early as 1942.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 09:11:59AM 1 point [-]

It doesn't create any actual confusion - unless people have gone out of their way to weaken society's immune system, eg by deliberately signalling Nazism when the reality is more obscure.

I think it weakens the immune system more when anyone who isn't in favour of completely unrestricted immigration gets called a Nazi. And there's a failure mode where constantly calling people Nazis (or sexists/racists) makes them more favourable towards Nazis (the theory is that on a subconcious level they think 'if I'm a Nazi, maybe Nazism isn't so bad).

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 01:32:37AM 1 point [-]

(the theory is that on a subconcious level they think 'if I'm a Nazi, maybe Nazism isn't so bad).

Or the more straightforward, if anyone proposing sensible immigration policy gets called a Nazi, eventually people conclude that "Nazi" means someone in favor of sensible immigration policy.

Comment author: Vaniver 11 March 2016 06:08:16PM 2 points [-]

I'm not sure about that. A common complaint about these kinds of games is that the AI's blatantly cheat, especially on higher difficulty levels. I could very well see a market for an AI that could give the human a challenge without cheating.

Several years ago, Backgammon AI was at the point where it could absolutely demolish humans without cheating. My impression is that people hated it, and even if they rolled the dice for the AI and input the results themselves they were pretty sure that it had to be cheating somehow.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 12:42:48AM 5 points [-]

That's why I said "AI that could give the human a challenge" not "AI that would demolish a human". Better yet, have the game difficulty setting actually control the intelligence of the AI, rather than how much the AI cheats.

Comment author: Lumifer 10 March 2016 10:00:13PM 3 points [-]

RTS is a bit of a special case because a lot of the skill involved is micromanagement and software is MUCH better at micromanagement than humans.

I don't expect to see highly sophisticated AI in games (at least adversarial, battle-it-out games) because there is no point. Games have to be fun which means that the goal of the AI is to gracefully lose to the human player after making him exert some effort.

You might be interested in Angband Borg.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 11 March 2016 07:44:16AM 9 points [-]

I don't expect to see highly sophisticated AI in games (at least adversarial, battle-it-out games) because there is no point. Games have to be fun which means that the goal of the AI is to gracefully lose to the human player after making him exert some effort.

I'm not sure about that. A common complaint about these kinds of games is that the AI's blatantly cheat, especially on higher difficulty levels. I could very well see a market for an AI that could give the human a challenge without cheating.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 05:56:23AM 2 points [-]

I may be missing something, but why does this matter? An AI has components, as does the human mind. When reasoning about friendliness, what matters is the goal component. Can't the perception/probability estimate module just be treated as an interchangeable black box, regardless of whether it is a DNN, or MCTS Solomov induction approximation, or Bayes nets or anything else?

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 11 March 2016 07:35:15AM 3 points [-]

Can't the perception/probability estimate module just be treated as an interchangeable black box, regardless of whether it is a DNN, or MCTS Solomov induction approximation, or Bayes nets or anything else?

Not necessarily. If the goal component what's to respect human preferences, it will be vital that the perception component isn't going to correctly identify what constitutes a "human".

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 06:07:39AM *  1 point [-]

Just look at their flag:

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Meandros_flag.svg/150px-Meandros_flag.svg.png&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party)&h=100&w=150&tbnid=CDly4gAodIMPcM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=120&docid=g-53Bx9BWHOy2M&usg=__gcjSL8sDC3eM9-5mVj4vERTCyW8=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-oezK-bfLAhVpQpoKHY3fANQQ9QEIITAA)

It looks just like a swastika. Sure, Putin and Trump and anyone who is nationalistic can be compared to Nazis, but this cheapens the term 'Nazi' or 'fascist'.

By "actual neo-nazi" I mean a group which has significant use of Nazi imagery and when significant members explicitly endorse Nazism.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 11 March 2016 07:31:41AM 1 point [-]

Just look at their flag

Seriously? You're only argument is that their flag looks like a Swastika if you squint just right?

Comment author: g_pepper 03 March 2016 11:14:19PM 1 point [-]

There's no empiric test or observable property that tells you whether someone or something has free will.

That statement seems (currently) true enough; presumably if we could execute a free will test, someone would have done it by now and there would be no need for these debates.

You compare free will with "souls, the afterlife, spirits, gods, the underworld, sympathetic magic, witchcraft, the evil eye...". It seems to me that the notion of free will is actually more similar to the notion of consciousness than it is to those things that you list. Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can't really empirically test for consciousness. Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can't empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.

Do you believe that consciousness is a phenomenon? If so, then what empiric test or observable property would you use to determine whether something (e.g. an artificially intelligent computing system) is conscious?

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 11 March 2016 03:08:17AM *  1 point [-]

Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can't really empirically test for consciousness.

If contentiousness doesn't exist how can we empirically test for anything? Empiricism is based on using past observations to predict future observations, it becomes meaningless if there's nothing there to do the observing.

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