Comment author: [deleted] 01 December 2012 11:50:38AM 0 points [-]

assigned-gender-during-childhood

Yep, I'd guess that matters a great deal. (IIRC certain radical feminists dislike male-to-female transsexuals for that reason.)

In response to comment by [deleted] on 2012 Survey Results
Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 05:51:53PM 0 points [-]

That's the explanation I'd lean towards myself.

As for the radical-feminists-versus-transsexuals thing - there seems to be a fair amount of tension between the gender/sexuality theories of different parts of the queer and feminist movements, which are generally glossed over in favor of cooperation due to common goals. Which, actually, is somewhat heartening.

Comment author: evand 29 November 2012 08:35:22PM 5 points [-]

(Leaving soon, will post math later if anyone is interested in the details.)

Short version: Suppose for simplicity of argument that all the probability of failure is in the portion of the machine that checks whether the received answer is correct, and that it has equal chance of producing a false positive or negative. (Neither of these assumptions is required, but I found it made the math easier to think about when I did it.) Call this error rate e.

Consider the set of possible answers received. For an n-bit answer, this set has size 2^n. Take a probability distribution over this set for the messages received, treat the operation of the machine as a Markov process and find the transition matrix, then set the output probability vector equal to the input, and you get that the probability vector is the eigenvector of the transition matrix (with the added constraint that it be a valid distribution).

You'll find that the maximum value of e for which the probability distribution concentrates some (fixed) minimum probability at the correct answer goes down exponentially with n.

In response to comment by evand on Causal Universes
Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 05:46:37PM -1 points [-]

Neat! I still need to give some thought to the question of where we're getting our probability distribution, though, when the majority of the computation is done by the universe's plothole filter.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 December 2012 10:13:25AM *  4 points [-]

They are also practically non-existent in right wing parties in the West. While being contrarian is a bad sign, getting people from all mainstream political positions to go into sputtering apoplexy with the same input can be a good sign.

In response to comment by [deleted] on 2012 Survey Results
Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 10:28:37AM -2 points [-]

I dunno, 2 and 3 seem like things I'd expect the right-wing to believe (though probably with less nuance) in America (not to say they wouldn't go into sputtering apoplexy if you said certain formulations of those ideas out loud and there was a camera nearby). And who was calling for revolution after the recent election? (tongue somewhat in cheek there)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 01 December 2012 10:08:52AM 8 points [-]

I do not accept your contention that people just happen to be exactly the correct degree of racist.

People are usually not "exactly correct" about anything, so statements like this are almost automatically true. But is this your true rejection?

Imagine that tomorrow some magic will turn all people into exactly the correct degree of racists. That means for example that if a person with a given skin color has (according to the external view) probability X to have some trait, they will expect that trait with probability exactly X, not more, not less.

Would such society be more similar to what we have now, or to a perfectly equal society?

Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 10:23:39AM 0 points [-]

It's certainly my (a) true rejection of "the problem is that [people] are updating correctly". What did you expect I was rejecting?

I dunno what that society would be more similar to. I expect it'd be a fair distance from either, and that there would remain significant problems apart from inequality of social status, economic status, etc. Eugine_Nier's assertion was that it would be identical (read: very similar) to what we have now. I disagreed.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 December 2012 09:22:38AM 10 points [-]

Many statistical effects of race are screened off by fairly easily obtained information,

Or would be if people weren't actively rigging said information such that this is not the case. And that's before getting into tail-effects.

Moreover, if you, say, beat someone for being black,

Which really doesn't happen these days. (It's certainly much rarer than someone being beaten up for being white.)

Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 09:52:20AM 1 point [-]

Some such information is degraded, yes, but not all, and not to uselessness. And yes, people are beaten in the first world in this day and age for being black or for being white, and I find it difficult to blame either of those on the use or misuse of Bayesian updating (except to the extent that observing a person's race might tell you "I can get away with this").

I do not accept your contention that people just happen to be exactly the correct degree of racist.

In response to comment by [deleted] on The substrate
Comment author: NancyLebovitz 01 December 2012 05:45:19AM 0 points [-]

Do counterfactuals just exist eternally in idea space, or do they need for someone to think of them?

Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 09:10:48AM -1 points [-]

Well, they don't exist at all, so the risk that they will stop existing is very low.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 01 December 2012 08:40:18AM 8 points [-]

Isn't the real problem that people are mishandling Bayesian updates based on race?

At this point I think the problem is that they are updating correctly.

Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 09:08:24AM 1 point [-]

I disagree. Many statistical effects of race are screened off by fairly easily obtained information, but people act as though this is not the case. Moreover, if you, say, beat someone for being black, that's really not tied to any sort of problem with your use of Bayesian updating.

Comment author: thomblake 30 November 2012 09:22:26PM 4 points [-]

FWIW, I have the opposite intuition. Transgendered people (practically by definition) care about gender a lot, so presumably would care more about those cultural distinctions.

Contrast the gender skeptic: "What do you mean, you were assigned male but are really female? There's no 'really' about it - gender is just a social construct, so do whatever you want."

Comment author: TorqueDrifter 01 December 2012 05:51:52AM 1 point [-]

Yeah, no idea how good my intuitions are here. I don't have much experience with the subject, and frankly have a little difficulty vividly imagining what it's like to have strong feelings about one's own gender. So let's go read Jandila's comments instead of this one.

Comment author: Emile 30 November 2012 12:59:14PM 6 points [-]

Does anybody know if this holds for other other preferences that tend to vary heavily by gender? Are MtoF transsexuals heavily into say programming, or science fiction? (I know of several transsexual game developers/designers, all MtoF).

In response to comment by Emile on 2012 Survey Results
Comment author: TorqueDrifter 30 November 2012 08:43:38PM *  3 points [-]

I don't know of any such data. I'd imagine that there's less of a psychological barrier to engaging in traditionally "gendered" interests for most transgendered people (that is, if you think a lot about gender being a social construct, you're probably going to care less about a cultural distinction between "tv shows for boys" and "tv shows for girls"). Beyond that I can't really speculate.

Edit: here's me continuing to speculate anyway. A transgendered person is more likely than a cisgendered person to have significant periods of their life in which they are perceived as having different genders, and therefore is likely to be more fully exposed to cultural expectations for each.

Comment author: gwern 29 November 2012 09:23:18PM *  10 points [-]

After I posted my comment, I realized that 3 vs 16 might just reflect the overall gender ratio of LW: if there's no connection between that stuff and finding LW interesting (a claim which may or may not be surprising depending on your background theories and beliefs), then 3 vs 16 might be a smaller version of the larger gender sample of 120 vs 1057. The respective decimals are 0.1875 and 0.1135, which is not dramatic-looking. The statistics for whether membership differs between the two pairs:

R> M <- as.table(rbind(c(120, 1057), c(3,16)))
R> dimnames(M) <- list(status=c("c","t"), gender=c("M","F"))
R> M
gender
status M F
c 120 1057
t 3 16
R> chisq.test(M, simulate.p.value = TRUE, B = 20000000)
Pearson's Chi-squared test with simulated p-value (based on 2e+07 replicates)
data: M X-squared = 0.6342, df = NA, p-value = 0.4346

(So it's not even close to the usual significance level. As intuitively makes sense: remove or add one person in the right category, and the ratio changes a fair bit.)

In response to comment by gwern on 2012 Survey Results
Comment author: TorqueDrifter 29 November 2012 10:14:27PM *  10 points [-]

Under this theory, it seems (with low statistical confidence of course) that LW-interest is perhaps correlated with biological sex rather than gender identity, or perhaps with assigned-gender-during-childhood. Which is kind of interesting.

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