Comment author: thrawnca 11 September 2016 10:54:29PM 0 points [-]

if your decision theory pays up, then if he flips tails, you pay $100 for no possible benefit.

But in the single-shot scenario, after it comes down tails, what motivation does an ideal game theorist have to stick to the decision theory?

Like Parfit's hitchhiker, although in advance you might agree that it's a worthwhile deal, when it comes to the point of actually paying up, your motivation is gone, unless you have bound yourself in some other way.

Comment author: Wes_W 14 September 2016 11:29:34PM *  2 points [-]

But in the single-shot scenario, after it comes down tails, what motivation does an ideal game theorist have to stick to the decision theory?

That's what the problem is asking!

This is a decision-theoretical problem. Nobody cares about it for immediate practical purpose. "Stick to your decision theory, except when you non-rigorously decide not to" isn't a resolution to the problem, any more than "ignore the calculations since they're wrong" was a resolution to the ultraviolet catastrophe.

Again, the point of this experiment is that we want a rigorous, formal explanation of exactly how, when, and why you should or should not stick to your precommitment. The original motivation is almost certainly in the context of AI design, where you don't HAVE a human homunculus implementing a decision theory, the agent just is its decision theory.

Comment author: thrawnca 18 August 2016 02:42:02AM *  0 points [-]

The beggars-and-gods formulation is the same problem.

I don't think so; I think the element of repetition substantially alters it - but in a good way, one that makes it more useful in designing a real-world agent. Because in reality, we want to design decision theories that will solve problems multiple times.

At the point of meeting a beggar, although my prospects of obtaining a gold coin this time around are gone, nonetheless my overall commitment is not meaningless. I can still think, "I want to be the kind of person who gives pennies to beggars, because overall I will come out ahead", and this thought remains applicable. I know that I can average out my losses with greater wins, and so I still want to stick to the algorithm.

In the single-shot scenario, however, my commitment becomes worthless once the coin comes down tails. There will never be any more 10K; there is no motivation any more to give 100. Following my precommitment, unless it is externally enforced, no longer makes any sense.

So the scenarios are significantly different.

Comment author: Wes_W 18 August 2016 05:07:00PM 0 points [-]

There will never be any more 10K; there is no motivation any more to give 100. Following my precommitment, unless it is externally enforced, no longer makes any sense.

This is the point of the thought experiment.

Omega is a predictor. His actions aren't just based on what you decide, but on what he predicts that you will decide.

If your decision theory says "nah, I'm not paying you" when you aren't given advance warning or repeated trials, then that is a fact about your decision theory even before Omega flips his coin. He flips his coin, gets heads, examines your decision theory, and gives you no money.

But if your decision theory pays up, then if he flips tails, you pay $100 for no possible benefit.

Neither of these seems entirely satisfactory. Is this a reasonable feature for a decision theory to have? Or is it pathological? If it's pathological, how do we fix it without creating other pathologies?

Comment author: thrawnca 16 August 2016 10:29:35PM *  1 point [-]

This is an attempt to examine the consequences of that.

Yes, but if the artificial scenario doesn't reflect anything in the real world, then even if we get the right answer, therefore what? It's like being vaccinated against a fictitious disease; even if you successfully develop the antibodies, what good do they do?

It seems to me that the "beggars and gods" variant mentioned earlier in the comments, where the opportunity repeats itself each day, is actually a more useful study. Sure, it's much more intuitive; it doesn't tie our brains up in knots, trying to work out a way to intend to do something at a point when all our motivation to do so has evaporated. But reality doesn't have to be complicated. Sometimes you just have to learn to throw in the pebble.

Comment author: Wes_W 17 August 2016 03:36:27PM 1 point [-]

Decision theory is an attempt to formalize the human decision process. The point isn't that we really are unsure whether you should leave people to die of thirst, but how we can encode that in an actual decision theory. Like so many discussions on Less Wrong, this implicitly comes back to AI design: an AI needs a decision theory, and that decision theory needs to not have major failure modes, or at least the failure modes should be well-understood.

If your AI somehow assigns a nonzero probability to "I will face a massive penalty unless I do this really weird action", that ideally shouldn't derail its entire decision process.

The beggars-and-gods formulation is the same problem. "Omega" is just a handy abstraction for "don't focus on how you got into this decision-theoretic situation". Admittedly, this abstraction sometimes obscures the issue.

Comment author: thrawnca 15 August 2016 10:44:15PM 0 points [-]

Does this particular thought experiment really have any practical application?

I can think of plenty of similar scenarios that are genuinely useful and worth considering, but all of them can be expressed with much simpler and more intuitive scenarios - eg when the offer will/might be repeated, or when you get to choose in advance whether to flip the coin and win 10000/lose 100. But with the scenario as stated - what real phenomenon is there that would reward you for being willing to counterfactually take an otherwise-detrimental action for no reason other than qualifying for the counterfactual reward? Even if we decide the best course of action in this contrived scenario - therefore what?

Comment author: Wes_W 15 August 2016 11:49:46PM 1 point [-]

Precommitments are used in decision-theoretic problems. Some people have proposed that a good decision theory should take the action that it would have precommitted to, if it had known in advance to do such a thing. This is an attempt to examine the consequences of that.

In response to Fake Explanations
Comment author: Yosarian2 08 July 2016 08:39:17PM *  0 points [-]

I was just re-reading the sequences, and I have to say that as a teacher I really think you're misjudging what is happening here.

Much of learning, it seems, is building up a mental framework, starting from certain concepts and attaching new concepts to them so that they can easily be recalled later and so you can use the connections between concepts to develop your own thinking later..

From my point of view, it looks like the student (perhaps as long as a year ago) had successfully created a new concept node in their mind, "heat conduction". They had connected this node to the concepts of heat transfer and physics. And even though they likely hadn't activated this node at all in perhaps a year, they were able to take a specific example of something they saw in the real world, generalize it to something that might be related to the more general topic of heat transfer in physics, and create a hypothesis of heat conduction.

If you saw a machine learning algorithm that was able to do all that, you'd really be impressed! Something like Watson might be able to go from the concept of heat transfer to heat conduction, but it wouldn't be able to generalize from a specific example of heat transfer it saw in the real world.

Now, they might not yet have a lot of details attached to the "heat conduction" concept node in their head. But that's ok, that they can learn, that gives you something to build on as a teacher. If you teach it well and they can attach some details and images and maybe some math to the concept of "heat conduction" in the head, then hopefully next time they'll say "Maybe heat conduction? Hmmm, no, that doesn't work." which is even better. But there's more going on here then just "guessing a password"; this is part of what constructing a model of the world looks like while the process is only partly completed.

Comment author: Wes_W 11 July 2016 02:52:08AM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure you've described a different mistake than Eliezer has?

Certainly, a student with a sufficiently incomplete understanding of heat conduction is going to have lots of lines of thought that terminate in question marks. The thesis of the post, as I read it, is that we want to be able to recognize when our thoughts terminate in question marks, rather than assuming we're doing something valid because our words sound like things the professor might say.

Comment author: SquirrelInHell 08 June 2016 06:49:09AM 0 points [-]

The computations in the second situation have the same fidelity and granularity as the first, and are morally equivalent. Your X is bigger (and therefore takes more to compute) than A(S), exactly because it contains both worlds. At any point in the physics simulation, you can subtract out Rt and get A(S)t.

OK, but this only moves the problem to a different place. Say I can find an operation that let's me transform the data irreversibly, in such a way that I can still get my computations and answers done, but no way of getting the original states back. What would you say then?

Comment author: Wes_W 08 June 2016 08:31:24PM 1 point [-]

No part of his objection hinged on reversibility, only the same linearity assumption you rely on to get a result at all.

Comment author: SquirrelInHell 07 June 2016 07:38:30AM *  1 point [-]

It seems to me you are taking my assumption of linearity on the wrong level. To be exact, I need the assumption of linearity of the operator of calculating future-time snapshots (fixed in the article).

This is entirely different from your example.

Imagine for example how the Fourier Transform is linear as an operation.

Comment author: Wes_W 07 June 2016 09:44:06PM *  1 point [-]

OK. I think I see what you are getting at.

First, one could simply reject your conclusion:

However at no point did I do anything that could be described as "simulating you".

The argument here is something like "just because you did the calculations differently doesn't mean your calculations failed to simulate a consciousness". Without a real model of how computation gives rise to consciousness (assuming it does), this is hard to resolve.

Second, one could simply accept it: there are some ways to do a given calculation which are ethical, and some ways that aren't.

I don't particularly endorse either of these, by the way (I hold no strong position on simulation ethics in general). I just don't see how your argument establishes that simulation morality is incoherent.

Comment author: Wes_W 07 June 2016 06:24:42AM 6 points [-]

From the point of view of physics, it contains garbage,

But a miracle occurs, and your physics simulation still works accurately for the individual components...?

I get that your assumption of "linear physics" gives you this. But I don't see any reason to believe that physics is "linear" in this very weird sense. In general, when you do calculations with garbage, you get garbage. If I time-evolve a simulation of (my house plus a bomb) for an hour, then remove all the bomb components at the end, I definitely do not get the same result as running a simulation with no bomb.

Comment author: Wes_W 02 April 2016 05:28:57AM *  6 points [-]

And apparently insurance companies can make money because the expected utility of buying insurance is lower than it's price.

No, the expected monetary value of insurance is lower than its price. (Assuming that the insurance company's assessment of your risk level is accurate.) You're equivocating between money and utility, which is the source of your confusion.

Suppose I offered a simple wager: we flip a coin, and if it comes up heads, I give you a million dollars. But if it comes up tails, you owe me a million dollars, and I get every cent you earn until that debt is paid. Is this bet fair?

Monetarily, yes. But even if I skew the odds in your favor a little, maybe 60/40, I'll bet you still don't want to take it. Why not? Isn't an expected return of $200,000 wildly in your favor?

Yeah, but that doesn't matter. An extra million dollars would make your life somewhat better; spending the next twenty years flat broke would make your life drastically worse. Expected utility is very negative.

The utility of money is sometimes claimed to be logarithmic. For small amounts of money you can use a linear approximation, but if the outcome can shift you to a totally different region of the curve, the concavity becomes very important.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 November 2015 05:38:08PM 0 points [-]

Instantaneous action at a distance would be locality.

Comment author: Wes_W 19 November 2015 04:40:09AM 0 points [-]

Non-locality, surely? Or "would violate locality"?

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