Comment author: Xodarap 01 March 2014 06:36:41PM 2 points [-]

Ovo-lacto vegetarians live significantly longer than vegans

Where does it say that the difference is significant? The only mention of this I see in the cited paper is table 7, and the CIs there overlap a great deal. (And it goes on to say that the numbers should be "interpreted with caution because of the uncertainty of the dietary classification of subjects in the Health Food Shoppers Study".)

Comment author: Alexei 17 May 2013 02:17:37AM 5 points [-]

Yup, that's basically right. Silicon Valley is definitely an amazing place to be right now. I'd consider myself to be a good/solid engineer, but not remarkable. One thing to keep in mind is that the cost of living here is more, but unless you are a big spender (need nice house, etc...), you'll do better here than elsewhere.

Comment author: Xodarap 22 January 2014 01:43:11PM 0 points [-]

What's the vesting schedule for stock? And are they options or outright equity?

Thank you for this article, it was extremely helpful.

Comment author: David_Gerard 19 January 2014 01:06:13PM *  -1 points [-]

The term refers to a specific subculture that calls itself "Effective Altruism".

Comment author: Xodarap 19 January 2014 11:10:42PM 0 points [-]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying? I'm aware of what "EA" stands for, if that's the confusion.

In response to 2013 Survey Results
Comment author: Xodarap 19 January 2014 12:58:23PM 4 points [-]

I found that 51% of effective altruists had given blood compared to 47% of others - a difference which did not reach statistical significance.

I gave blood before I was an EA but stopped because I didn't think it was effective. Does being veg*n correlate with calling oneself an EA? That seems like a more effective intervention.

Comment author: Salutator 04 November 2013 10:30:52PM 0 points [-]

I'm a bit out of my depth here. I understood an "ordered group" as a group with an order on its elements. That clearly can be finite. If it's more than that the question would be why we should assume whatever further axioms characterize it.

Comment author: Xodarap 19 January 2014 12:56:25PM 0 points [-]

If it's more than that the question would be why we should assume whatever further axioms characterize it

from wikipedia:

a partially ordered group is a group (G,+) equipped with a partial order "≤" that is translation-invariant; in other words, "≤" has the property that, for all a, b, and g in G, if a ≤ b then a+g ≤ b+g and g+a ≤ g+b

So if a > 0, a+a > a etc. which results means the group has to be torsion free.

Comment author: PrometheanFaun 28 October 2013 02:40:01AM *  1 point [-]

If the inequitable society has greater total utility, it must be at least as good as the equitable one.

No, the premises don't necessitate that. "A is at least as good as B", in our language, is ¬(A < B). But you've stated that the lack of an edge from A to B says nothing about whether A < B, now you're talking like if the premises don't conclude that A < B they must conclude ¬(A < B), which is kinda affirming the consequent.

It might have been a slip of the tongue, or it might be an indication that you're overestimating the significance of this alignment. These premises don't prove that a higher utility inequitable society is at least as good as a lower utility equitable one. They merely don't disagree.

I may be wrong here, but it looks as though, just as the premises support (A < B) ⇒ (utility(A) < utility(B)), they also support (A < B) ⇒ (normalizedU(A)) < normalizedU(B))), such that normalizedU(World) = sum(log(utility(life)) for life in elements(World)) a perfectly reasonable sort of population utilitarianism where utility monsters are fairly well seen to. In this case equality would usually yield greater betterness than inequality despite it being permitted by the premises.

Comment author: Xodarap 03 November 2013 01:48:27PM 1 point [-]

But you've stated that the lack of an edge from A to B says nothing about whether A < B, now you're talking like if the premises don't conclude that A < B they must conclude ¬(A < B), which is kinda affirming the consequent.

This is a good point, what I was trying to say is slightly different. Basically, we know that (A < B) ==> (f(A) < f(B)), where f is our order embedding. So it is indeed true that f(A) > f(B) ==> ¬(A < B), by modus tollens.

just as the premises support (A < B) ⇒ (utility(A) < utility(B)), they also support (A < B) ⇒ (normalizedU(A)) < normalizedU(B))), such that normalizedU(World) = sum(log(utility(life))

Yeah, that's a pretty clever way to get around the constraint. I think my claim "If the inequitable society has greater total utility, it must be at least as good as the equitable one" would still hold though, no?

Comment author: Manfred 27 October 2013 11:55:27PM *  2 points [-]

Ah, great, I understand more now - the linchpin is the premise that what we really want, is to preserve order when we add another person. So what sort of premise would lead to average utilitarianism?

How about - order should be preserved if we shift the zero-point of our happiness measurement. That seems pretty common-sense. And yet it rules out total utilitarianism. (2,2,2) > (5), but (1,1,1) < (4).

Or maybe we could allow average utilitarianism just by weakening the premise - so that we want to preserve the ordering only if we add an average member.

Comment author: Xodarap 03 November 2013 01:34:55PM 1 point [-]

How about - order should be preserved if we shift the zero-point of our happiness measurement. That seems pretty common-sense. And yet it rules out total utilitarianism. (2,2,2) > (5), but (1,1,1) < (4).

The usual definition of "zero-point" is "it doesn't matter whether that person exists or not". By that definition, there is no (universal) zero-point in average utilitarianism. (2,2,0) != (2,2) etc.

By the way, it's true you can't shift by a constant in total utilitarianism, but you can scale by a constant/

Comment author: Salutator 28 October 2013 02:55:56PM *  1 point [-]

Two points:

  1. I don't know the Holder theorem, but if it actually depends on the lattice being a group, that includes an extra assumption of the existence of a neutral element and inverse elements. The neutral element would have to be a life of exactly zero value, so that killing that person off wouldn't matter at all, either positively or negatively. The inverse elements would mean that for every happy live you can imagine an exactly opposite unhappy live, so that killing off both leaves the world exactly as good as before.

  2. Proving this might be hard for infinite cases, but it would be trivial for finite generating groups. Most Less Wrong utilitarians would believe there are only finitely many brain states (otherwise simulations are impossible!) and utility is a function of brain states. That would mean only finitely many utility levels and then the result is obvious. The mathematically interesting part is that it still works if we go infinite on some things but not on others, but that's not relevant to the general Less Wrong belief system.

(Also, here I'm discussing the details of utilitarian systems arguendo, but I'm sticking with the general claim that all of them are mathematically inconsistent or horrible under Arrow's theorem.)

Comment author: Xodarap 02 November 2013 08:10:06PM *  1 point [-]

it would be trivial for finite generating groups... That would mean only finitely many utility levels and then the result is obvious

Z^2 lexically ordered is finitely generated, and can't be embedded in (R,+). [EDIT: I'm now not sure if you meant "finitely generated" or "finite" here. If it's the latter, note that any ordered group must be torsion-free, which obviously excludes finite groups.]

But your implicit point is valid (+1) - I should've spent more time explaining why this result is surprising. Just about every comment on this article is "this is obvious because <some proof which is invalid>", which I guess is an indication LWers are so immersed in utilitarianism that counter-examples don't even come to mind.

Comment author: gjm 27 October 2013 08:57:15PM 2 points [-]

Near the beginning you write this:

Using modern mathematics, we can now prove the intuition of Mills and Bentham: because addition is so special, any ethical system which is in a certain technical sense "reasonable" is equivalent to total utilitarianism.

but then your actual argument includes steps like these:

The most obvious way of defining an ethics of populations is to just take an ordering of individual lives and "glue them together" in an order-preserving way, like I did above.

which, please note, does not amount to any sort of argument that we must or even should just glue values-of-lives together in this sort of way.

I do not see any sign in what you have written that Hölder's theorem is doing any real work for you here. It says that an archimedean totally ordered group is isomorphic to a subset of (R,+) -- but all the contentious stuff about total utilitarianism is already there by the time you suppose that utilities form an archimedean totally ordered group and that combining people is just a matter of applying the group operation to their individual utilities.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 10:25:31PM 0 points [-]

which, please note, does not amount to any sort of argument that we must or even should just glue values-of-lives together in this sort of way.

Thanks for the feedback, I should've used clearer terminology.

I do not see any sign in what you have written that Hölder's theorem is doing any real work for you here

This seems to be the consensus. It's very surprising to me that we get such a strong result from only the l-group axioms, and the fact that his result is so celebrated seems to indicate that other mathematicians find it surprising too, but the commenters here are rather blase.

Do you think giving examples of how many things completely unrelated to addition are groups (wallpaper groups, rubik's cube, functions under composition, etc.) would help show that the really restrictive axiom is the archimedean one?

Comment author: Vaniver 27 October 2013 07:51:25PM 11 points [-]

The most basic premise is that we have some way of ordering individual lives.

I reject this premise. Specifically, I believe I have some ordering, and you have some ordering, but strongly suspect those orderings disagree, so don't think we have one unambiguous joint ordering.

In either case, we require that the ranking remain consistent when we add people to the population.

I reject this premise. Specifically, I believe that lives interact. Suppose Bob by himself has a medium quality life, and Alice by herself has a medium quality life. Putting them in a universe together by no means guarantees that each of them will have a medium quality life.

Total utilitarianism is a dead simple conclusion from its premises--you don't need to bring in group theory. This is only a "pure math" argument for total utilitarianism because you're talking about the group (R,+) instead of addition, but the two are the same, and the core of the argument remains the contentious moral premises.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 10:15:39PM 1 point [-]

Specifically, I believe I have some ordering, and you have some ordering, but strongly suspect those orderings disagree, so don't think we have one unambiguous joint ordering.

I'm not certain this proves what you want it to - it would still hold that you and I are individually total utilitarians. We would just disagree about what those utilities are.

Specifically, I believe that lives interact

I guess I don't find this very convincing. Any reasonably complicated argument is going to say "ceteris paribus" at some point - I don't think you can just reject the conclusion because of this.

This is only a "pure math" argument for total utilitarianism because you're talking about the group (R,+) instead of addition, but the two are the same

I guess I don't know what you mean. By (R,+) I was trying to refer to addition, so I apologize if this has some other meaning and you thought I was "proving" them equivalent.

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