Comment author: gjm 27 October 2013 08:57:15PM 2 points [-]

Near the beginning you write this:

Using modern mathematics, we can now prove the intuition of Mills and Bentham: because addition is so special, any ethical system which is in a certain technical sense "reasonable" is equivalent to total utilitarianism.

but then your actual argument includes steps like these:

The most obvious way of defining an ethics of populations is to just take an ordering of individual lives and "glue them together" in an order-preserving way, like I did above.

which, please note, does not amount to any sort of argument that we must or even should just glue values-of-lives together in this sort of way.

I do not see any sign in what you have written that Hölder's theorem is doing any real work for you here. It says that an archimedean totally ordered group is isomorphic to a subset of (R,+) -- but all the contentious stuff about total utilitarianism is already there by the time you suppose that utilities form an archimedean totally ordered group and that combining people is just a matter of applying the group operation to their individual utilities.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 10:25:31PM 0 points [-]

which, please note, does not amount to any sort of argument that we must or even should just glue values-of-lives together in this sort of way.

Thanks for the feedback, I should've used clearer terminology.

I do not see any sign in what you have written that Hölder's theorem is doing any real work for you here

This seems to be the consensus. It's very surprising to me that we get such a strong result from only the l-group axioms, and the fact that his result is so celebrated seems to indicate that other mathematicians find it surprising too, but the commenters here are rather blase.

Do you think giving examples of how many things completely unrelated to addition are groups (wallpaper groups, rubik's cube, functions under composition, etc.) would help show that the really restrictive axiom is the archimedean one?

Comment author: Vaniver 27 October 2013 07:51:25PM 11 points [-]

The most basic premise is that we have some way of ordering individual lives.

I reject this premise. Specifically, I believe I have some ordering, and you have some ordering, but strongly suspect those orderings disagree, so don't think we have one unambiguous joint ordering.

In either case, we require that the ranking remain consistent when we add people to the population.

I reject this premise. Specifically, I believe that lives interact. Suppose Bob by himself has a medium quality life, and Alice by herself has a medium quality life. Putting them in a universe together by no means guarantees that each of them will have a medium quality life.

Total utilitarianism is a dead simple conclusion from its premises--you don't need to bring in group theory. This is only a "pure math" argument for total utilitarianism because you're talking about the group (R,+) instead of addition, but the two are the same, and the core of the argument remains the contentious moral premises.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 10:15:39PM 1 point [-]

Specifically, I believe I have some ordering, and you have some ordering, but strongly suspect those orderings disagree, so don't think we have one unambiguous joint ordering.

I'm not certain this proves what you want it to - it would still hold that you and I are individually total utilitarians. We would just disagree about what those utilities are.

Specifically, I believe that lives interact

I guess I don't find this very convincing. Any reasonably complicated argument is going to say "ceteris paribus" at some point - I don't think you can just reject the conclusion because of this.

This is only a "pure math" argument for total utilitarianism because you're talking about the group (R,+) instead of addition, but the two are the same

I guess I don't know what you mean. By (R,+) I was trying to refer to addition, so I apologize if this has some other meaning and you thought I was "proving" them equivalent.

Comment author: shminux 27 October 2013 07:46:35PM -1 points [-]

Not all, just countable...

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 10:08:41PM *  2 points [-]

Not all, just countable...

Z^2 lexically ordered is countable but can't be embedded in Z.

It seems like your intuition is shared by a lot of LW though - people seem to think it's "obvious" that these restrictions result in total utilitarianism, even though it's actually pretty tricky.

Comment author: Yvain 27 October 2013 07:33:16PM 1 point [-]

If you change the value of "medium" from "1" to "-5" while leaving the other two states the same, your conclusion no longer holds. For example, on your last graph, (very good, medium) would outrank (very good), even though the former has a value of -2 and the latter of +3. This suggests your system doesn't allow negative utilities, which seems bad because intuitively it's possible for utility to sometimes be negative (eg euthanasia arguments).

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 07:41:35PM 0 points [-]

This is a good point - I am now regretting not having given more technical details on what it means to be "order preserving".

The requirement is that X > 0 ==> X + Y > Y. I've generated the graph under the assumption that Medium > 0, which results in (very good, medium) > (very good). Clearly the antecedent doesn't hold if Medium < 0, in which case the graph would go the other direction, as you point out.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 October 2013 07:05:23PM *  0 points [-]

If the inequitable society has greater total utility, it must be at least as good as the equitable one.

Well, yes. The badness of inequality will show up in the utilities. Once you've mapped states of society onto utilities, you've already taken it into account. You still need an additional empirical argument to say anything interesting (for example, that a society with an equal distribution of wealth is not as good as a society with slightly more total wealth in an inequitable distribution; that may or may not be what you had in mind, but it seemed worth clarifying).

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 07:30:31PM 1 point [-]

The badness of inequality will show up in the utilities

Sure. This is probably not a majority opinion on LW, but there are a lot of people who believe that equality is good even beyond utility maximization (c.f. Rawls). That's what I was trying to get at when I said:

In fact, it is so bad that there are circumstances where increasing equality is good even if people are, on average, worse off.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 27 October 2013 05:37:04PM 4 points [-]

If we accept the premises of this blog post, this intuition simply cannot be correct. If the inequitable society has greater total utility, it must be at least as good as the equitable one.

Not sure if that's an application as much as a tautology. Valuing equality means that you reject the assumption of "we require that the ranking remain consistent when we add people to the population", so of course accepting that assumption is incompatible with valuing equality.

At least, that's assuming that you value equality as an intrinsic good. As James Miller pointed out, one can also oppose inequality on the ground that it ends up making people's lives worse off, which is an empirical claim separate from utilitarianism.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 07:26:50PM *  0 points [-]

Not sure if that's an application as much as a tautology

It's a proof, so sure it's a tautology.

Here's a better way of masking it though: suppose we believe:

  1. We should be non-sadistic: X < 0 ==> X+Y < Y
  2. Accepting of dominance: X > 0 ==> X+Y > Y

This is exactly what it means to be order preserving, but maybe when phrased this way the result seems more surprising (in the sense that those axioms are harder to refute)?

Comment author: Manfred 27 October 2013 05:26:24PM *  4 points [-]

The only part that makes this total utilitarianism is the ranking you match the embedding to. So what, mathematically, goes wrong if you embed the average of your individual numbers into a directed graph like (Very Good) > (Good, Good, Good, Good) ~~ (Good) > (Medium).

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 07:23:24PM 1 point [-]

I think this is a great question, as people who accept the premises of this article are likely to accept some sort of utilitarianism, so a major result is that average utilitarianism doesn't work.

If we are average utilitarians, then we believe that (2) ~~ (1,2,3). But this must mean that (2,6) ~~ (1,2,3,6) to be order preserving, which is not true. (The former's average utility is 4, the latter's 3.)

Comment author: shminux 27 October 2013 06:37:20PM 0 points [-]

First, I think that what you call lattice order is more like partial order, unless you can also show that a join always exists. The pictures have it, but I am not convinced that they constitute a proof.

There might be circumstances where we are uncertain whether or not P is better than Q, but if we are certain, then it must be that P has greater total utility than Q.

It looks like all you have "shown" is that if you embed some partial order into a total order, then you can map this total ordering into integers. I am not a mathematician, but this seems rather trivial.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 07:17:36PM *  1 point [-]

First, I think that what you call lattice order is more like partial order, unless you can also show that a join always exists. The pictures have it, but I am not convinced that they constitute a proof.

I agree, I didn't show this. It's not hard, but it's a bit of writing to prove that (x1x2 \/ y1y2)=(x1\/y1)(x2\/y2) which inductively shows that this is an l-group.

It looks like all you have "shown" is that if you embed some partial order into a total order, then you can map this total ordering into integers. I am not a mathematician, but this seems rather trivial.

It's not a total order, nor is it true that all totally ordered groups can be embedded into Z (consider R^2, lexically ordered, for example. Heck, even R itself can't be mapped to Z since it's uncountable!). So not only would this be a non-trivial proof, it would be an impossible one :-)

Comment author: James_Miller 27 October 2013 05:32:12PM *  5 points [-]

Many people, including myself, have the intuition that inequality is bad. In fact, it is so bad that there are circumstances where increasing equality is good even if people are, on average, worse off. If we accept the premises of this blog post, this intuition simply cannot be correct.

Don't arguments related to the badness of inequality often rely on the existence of envy such that if I envy you then my utility goes down as yours increases.

Comment author: Xodarap 27 October 2013 07:12:52PM 1 point [-]

Yes, one way to rescue this is to value equality instrumentally, instead of intrinsically.

A Pure Math Argument for Total Utilitarianism

-5 Xodarap 27 October 2013 05:05PM

Summary: I sketch an argument that population ethics should, in a certain technical sense, be similar to addition. I show that a surprising theorem of Hölder's implies that this means that we should be total utilitarians.

Addition is a very special operation. Despite the wide variety of esoteric mathematical objects known to us today, none of them have the basic desirable properties of grade-school arithmetic.

This fact was intuited by 19th century philosophers in the development of what we now call "total" utilitarianism. In this ethical system, we can assign each person a real number to indicate their welfare, and the value of an entire population is the sum of each individuals' welfare.

Using modern mathematics, we can now prove the intuition of Mills and Bentham: because addition is so special, any ethical system which is in a certain technical sense "reasonable" is equivalent to total utilitarianism.

What do we mean by ethics?


The most basic premise is that we have some way of ordering individual lives. 

We don't need to say how much better some life is than another, we just need to be able to put them in order. We might have some uncertainty as to which of two lives is better:


In this case, we aren't certain if "Medium" or "Medium 2" is better. However, we know they're both better than "Bad" and worse than "Good".

In the case when we always know which of two lives is better, we say that lives are totally ordered. If there is uncertainty, we say they are lattice ordered.

In either case, we require that the ranking remain consistent when we add people to the population. Here we add a person of "Medium" utility to each population:


The ranking on the right side of the figure above is legitimate because it keeps the order - if some life X is worse than Y, then (X + Medium) is still worse than (Y + Medium). This ranking below for example would fail that:


This ranking is inconsistent because it sometimes says that "Bad" is worse than "Medium" and other times says "Bad" is better than "Medium". A basic principle of ethics is that rankings should be consistent, and so rankings like the latter are excluded.

Increasing population size


The most obvious way of defining an ethics of populations is to just take an ordering of individual lives and "glue them together" in an order-preserving way, like I did above. This generates what mathematicians would call the free group. (The only tricky part is that we need good and bad lives to "cancel out", something which I've talked about before.)

It turns out that merely gluing populations together in this way gives us a highly structured object known as a "lattice-ordered group". Here is a snippet of the resulting lattice:


This ranking is similar to what philosophers often call "Dominance" - if everyone in population P is better off than everyone in population Q, then P is better than Q. However, this is somewhat stronger - it allows us to compare populations of different sizes, something that the traditional dominance criterion doesn't let us do.

Let's take a minute to think about what we've done. Using only the fact that individuals' lives can be ordered and the requirement that population ethics respects this ordering in a certain technical sense, we've derived a robust population ethics, about which we can prove many interesting things.

Getting to total utilitarianism


One obvious facet of the above ranking is that it's not total. For example, we don't know if "Very Good" is better than "Good, Good", i.e. if it's better to have welfare "spread out" across multiple people, or concentrated in one. This obviously prohibits us from claiming that we've derived total utilitarianism, because under that system we always know which is better.

However, we can still derive a form of total utilitarianism which is equivalent in a large set of scenarios. To do so, we need to use the idea of an embedding. This is merely a way of assigning each welfare level a number. Here is an example embedding:

  • Medium = 1
  • Good = 2
  • Very Good = 3

Here's that same ordering, except I've tagged each population with the total "utility" resulting from that embedding:


This is clearly not identical to total utilitarianism - "Very Good" has a higher total utility than "Medium, Medium" but we don't know which is better, for example.

However, this ranking never disagrees with total utilitarianism - there is never a case where P is better than Q yet P has less total utility than Q.

Due to a surprising theorem of Holder which I have discussed before, as long as we disallow "infinitely good" populations, there is always some embedding like this. Thus, we can say that:
Total utilitarianism is the moral "baseline". There might be circumstances where we are uncertain whether or not P is better than Q, but if we are certain, then it must be that P has greater total utility than Q.

An application

Here is one consequence of these results. Many people, including myself, have the intuition that inequality is bad. In fact, it is so bad that there are circumstances where increasing equality is good even if people are, on average, worse off.

If we accept the premises of this blog post, this intuition simply cannot be correct. If the inequitable society has greater total utility, it must be at least as good as the equitable one.

Concluding remarks

There are certain restrictions we want the "addition" of a person to a population to obey. It turns out that there is only one way to obey them: by using grade school addition, i.e. total utilitarianism.
[For those interested in the technical result: Holder showed that any archimedean l-group is l-isomorphic to a subgroup of (R,+). The proof can be found in Glass' Partially Ordered Groups as Corollary 4.1.4. This article was originally posted here.]

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