Comment author: hairyfigment 06 January 2013 05:26:14AM 0 points [-]

You keep making statements like,

the neuron firing pattern is presumably the cause of the quale, it's certainly not the quale itself.

And you seem to consider this self-evident. Well, it seemed self-evident to me that Martha's physical reaction would 'be' a quale. So where do we go from there?

(Suppose your neurons reacted all the time the way they do now when you see orange light, except that they couldn't connect it to anything else - no similarities, no differences, no links of any kind. Would you see anything?)

Comment author: aaronsw 06 January 2013 07:34:20PM 1 point [-]

I guess you need to do some more thinking to straighten out your views on qualia.

Comment author: shminux 05 January 2013 10:35:42PM 1 point [-]

I don't understand what else is there.

Comment author: aaronsw 05 January 2013 11:28:17PM 6 points [-]

Imagine a flashlight with a red piece of cellophane over it pointed at a wall. Scientists some day discover that the red dot on the wall is caused by the flashlight -- it appears each and every time the flashlight fires and only when the flashlight is firing. However, the red dot on the wall is certainly not the same as the flashlight: one is a flashlight and one is a red dot.

The red dot, on the other hand, could be reduced to some sort of interaction between certain frequencies of light-waves and wall-atoms and so on. But it will certainly not get reduced to flashlights.

By the same token, you are not going to reduce the-subjective-experience-of-seeing-red to neurons; subjective experiences aren't made out of neurons any more than red dots are made of flashlights.

Comment author: shminux 05 January 2013 10:16:42PM 0 points [-]

and why not?

Comment author: aaronsw 05 January 2013 10:23:39PM 1 point [-]

Because the neuron firing pattern is presumably the cause of the quale, it's certainly not the quale itself.

Comment author: nshepperd 05 January 2013 02:45:29AM 1 point [-]

So if you disagree that qualia is a basic fact of physics, what do you think it reduces to?

Something brains do, obviously. One way or another.

And if you think physics can tell whether something is a Turing-machine-simulating-a-brain, what's the physical algorithm for looking at a series of physical particles and deciding whether it's executing a particular computation or not?

I should perhaps be asking what evidence Searle has for thinking he knows things like what qualia is, or what a computation is. My statements were both negative: it is not clear that qualia is a basic fact of physics; it is not obvious that you can't describe computation in physical terms. Searle just makes these assumptions.

If you must have an answer, how about this: a physical system P is a computation of a value V if adding as premises the initial and final states of P and a transition function describing the physics of P shortens a formal proof that V = whatever.

Comment author: aaronsw 05 January 2013 09:46:46PM 1 point [-]

They're not assumptions, they're the answers to questions that have the highest probability going for them given the evidence.

Comment author: shminux 05 January 2013 12:38:05AM *  2 points [-]

Suppose that neuroscientists some day show that the quale of seeing red matches a certain brain structure or a neuron firing pattern or a neuro-chemical process in all humans. Would you then say that the quale of red has been reduced?

Comment author: aaronsw 05 January 2013 09:45:19PM 2 points [-]

Of course not!

Comment author: hairyfigment 05 January 2013 12:21:35AM -1 points [-]

Do you think you can reduce qualia?

Well, would that mean writing a series like this?

My intuition certainly says that Martha has a feeling of ineffable learning. Do you at least agree that this proves the unreliability of our intuitions here?

Comment author: aaronsw 05 January 2013 09:45:02PM -1 points [-]

Who said anything about our intuitions (except you, of course)?

Comment author: MugaSofer 04 January 2013 11:46:10PM *  -1 points [-]

I do think essentially the same argument goes through for free will

Could you expand on this point, please? It generally agreed* that "free will vs determinism" is a dilemma that we dissolved long ago. I can't see what else you could mean by this, so ...

[*EDIT: here, that is]

Comment author: aaronsw 05 January 2013 09:36:42PM 0 points [-]

I guess it really depends on what you mean by free will. If by free will, pjeby meant some kind of qualitative experience, then it strikes me that what he means by it is just a form of qualia and so of course the qualia argument goes through. If he means by it something more complicated, then I don't see how point one holds (we experience it), and the argument obviously doesn't go through.

Comment author: MugaSofer 26 December 2012 02:04:35AM 1 point [-]

if you simulate a brain with a Turing machine, it won't have qualia (because: qualia is clearly a basic fact of physics and there's no way just using physics to tell whether something is a Turing-machine-simulating-a-brain or not)

There's your problem. Why the hell should we assume that "qualia is clearly a basic fact of physics "?

Comment author: aaronsw 04 January 2013 10:10:16PM 1 point [-]

Because it's the only thing in the universe we've found with a first-person ontology. How else do you explain it?

Comment author: nshepperd 26 December 2012 12:33:27AM *  2 points [-]

I can't really speak for LW as a whole, but I'd guess that among the people here who don't believe¹ "qualia doesn't exist", 1 and 2 are fine, but we have issues with 3, as expanded below. Relatedly, there seems be some confusion between the "boring AI" proposition, that you can make computers do reasoning, and Searle's "strong AI" thing he's trying to refute, which says that AIs running on computers would have both consciousness and some magical "intentionality". "Strong AI" shouldn't actually concern us, except in talking about EMs or trying to make our FAI non-conscious.

3. if you simulate a brain with a Turing machine, it won't have qualia

Pretty much disagree.

qualia is clearly a basic fact of physics

Really disagree.

and there's no way just using physics to tell whether something is a Turing-machine-simulating-a-brain or not

And this seems really unlikely.

¹ I qualify my statement like this because there is a long-standing confusion over the use of the word "qualia" as described in my parenthetical here.

Comment author: aaronsw 04 January 2013 10:08:32PM 2 points [-]

Well, let's be clear: the argument I laid out is trying to refute the claim that "I can create a human-level consciousness with a Turing machine". It doesn't mean you couldn't create an AI using something other than a pure Turing machine and it doesn't mean Turing machines can't do other smart computations. But it does mean that uploading a brain into a Von Neumann machine isn't going to keep you alive.

So if you disagree that qualia is a basic fact of physics, what do you think it reduces to? Is there anything else that has a first-person ontology the way qualia does?

And if you think physics can tell whether something is a Turing-machine-simulating-a-brain, what's the physical algorithm for looking at a series of physical particles and deciding whether it's executing a particular computation or not?

Comment author: pjeby 26 December 2012 12:28:26AM 5 points [-]

Searle says his life's work is to explain how things like "money" and "human rights" can exist in "a world consisting entirely of physical particles in fields of force";

Someone should tell him this has already been done: dissolving that kind of confusion is literally part of LessWrong 101, i.e. the Mind Projection Fallacy. Money and human rights and so forth are properties of minds modeling particles, not properties of the particles themselves.

That this is still his (or any other philosopher's) life's work is kind of sad, actually.

Comment author: aaronsw 04 January 2013 10:01:47PM 2 points [-]

I guess my phrasing was unclear. What Searle is trying to do is generate reductions for things like "money" and "human rights"; I think EY is trying to do something similar and it takes him more than just one article on the Mind Projection Fallacy. (Even once you establish that it's properties of minds, not particles, there's still a lot of work left to do.)

View more: Next