Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 25 September 2015 10:09:40PM 7 points [-]

Let's poll for backstory type:

One side-note: I notice that I seem to be almost the only one using polls. Why is that?

Submitting...

Comment author: adamzerner 25 September 2015 10:20:36PM *  2 points [-]

One side-note: I notice that I seem to be almost the only one using polls. Why is that?

I think it's just because other people don't think to use them. I love the polls!

Comment author: Rain 25 September 2015 01:39:21AM 9 points [-]

More likely, he also "always thought that way," and the extreme story was written to provide additional drama.

Comment author: adamzerner 25 September 2015 05:07:57AM *  1 point [-]

Perhaps. My best guess is that he did always think that way... but that the experience also gave him a notable boost (how could it not?!). My reasoning is that tons of people have similarly painful experiences, but don't become behavioral economists afterwards.

Comment author: adamzerner 25 September 2015 04:39:30AM *  4 points [-]

Ultimately, I'm pretty sure I "always thought that way". The following ideas and their implications have always been obvious to me: consequentialism, reductionism, thinking at the margin, trade-offs, cost-benefit analyses, expected value.

But perhaps a) arguing with my parents, b) suffering through school, c) living in a world of irrational people, and d) being bullied influenced me by motivating me to think more deeply about things (often out of frustration and spite; which I'm not proud of, but am saying because it's true).


A: When I was younger, I was a bit mischievous. I would get punished a lot by my parents (a big problem I had was that I didn't know how to lose). When I was punished, I would have to sit in my room with all my toys having been taken away from me. And as a little kid with ADHD, sitting in a room by myself with nothing to do was pretty uncomfortable.

I would say things like "Your statement depends on A, B and C, so let me present my counter arguments, and if I change your mind on A, B or C, you should change your mind on the larger point" (except I didn't have the vocabulary to say this clearly). Sometimes I would present a good case and disprove A & B... but they always refused to change their mind on the larger point. This infuriated me. Usually I wouldn't receive an explanation, but when I did, it'd usually be "I'm the authority" or "that's just the way it is". "Just the way it is" is a huge pet peeve of mind.

So I used to dream of being a lawyer. I fantasized about this magical place called a court room where a judge enforced basic logic and let me make my points without being interrupted.

B: I found school to be incredibly boring. Perhaps this boredom motivated me to use rational thinking as a tool to help me avoid the unpleasantness (similar to Dan Ariely, but obviously to a lesser extent). Although I didn't have the vocabulary, the ideas of consequentialism, terminal vs. instrumental goals, Lost Purposes etc. were obvious to me at a very young age. I'd think:

Why do I need to do well in school? Grades -> college -> job -> money -> happiness. So then, I should only pursue grades and other instrumental goals to the extent that they lead to my terminal goal(s).

The boredom and frustration also motivated me to question the educational system itself. When school would do something that made me unhappy, I'd question, "Does it actually make sense that they're making us do this?". I'd often conclude that the answer is "no", and I'd be motivated to think about it from scratch and figure out a better system. Maybe this deep thinking helped me develop intellectually?

C: More generally, we live in a world where the sanity waterline is pretty low and there's a lot of stupidity around us (ex. refusing to admit that trade-offs exist; refusing to think at the margin). If there wasn't as much stupidity around me, maybe I wouldn't have been as motivated to think deeply about things, and wouldn't have developed as much. But because it's there, I think I just generally was frustrated and wanted to think deeply about topics to prove once and for all that the stupid person I was dealing with was wrong.

What would have happened if I grew up in a world of sane people? Without the extra motivation that frustration and spite provided me with, would I have been happy to sit back and play video games? Maybe. Maybe not. At this point, I'm mature enough to be motivated by things like truth and altruism, but I'm not sure if my middle/high school self would have been.

D: There was a point in middle school where I fought back against a bully and lost every friend I had for doing so. At the time, I was socially conscious enough to be a bit traumatized. But soon afterwards, I started to question things. Why care about social value? Through what mechanism do friends actually bring joy? I think this just further molded me into someone who questions/thinks about everything.

Other: I was raised Jewish. I remember believing in God and the bible stories when I was really young, but at the same time being confused by them. It was weird). I believed that there was some old man in the sky, but it made no sense to me that he didn't have a physical form. How could anything not have a physical form? And how could he be so powerful if he didn't have a physical form? I think I remember deviating a bit in my beliefs because of these questions I had. I think I believed that God was real, but that he had a physical form and wasn't quite what they told me.

In the years before my Bar Mitzvah, I definitely didn't believe in religion anymore. I was annoyed that I had to go to Hebrew School. I was also annoyed that I had to practice for my Bar Mitzvah, but wasn't opposed to having the ceremony to get the presents.

I also remember a specific day in 10th grade World History. We were learning about some African cultures and the Gods they believed in. I remember being taught that they had different Gods to explain different phenomenas. Like a God of rain, God of thunder etc. At that point, it really hit me that when humans don't understand something, they're capable of just inventing an explanation and believing it. "How is there water falling from the sky? It must be The God Of Rain".

Comment author: adamzerner 25 September 2015 04:58:13AM *  0 points [-]

Note: I've noticed that calling people stupid is frowned upon here. In this situation, I'm trying to communicate that I spent a lot of time being frustrated with people, and that it may have motivated me to think more deeply about things than I otherwise would have, so the word seems appropriate.

And for what it's worth, I'm altruistic, I want people to be happy, but I'm a big believer in accountability, and when people act stupidly, I think it's appropriate to call them out on it. Myself included!! If I act in a way that isn't just misguided, but is genuinely stupid, I want to be told so. Because I think the embarrassment is useful negative feedback, and because I want to use the information to better avoid similar mistakes in the future. I'm strong enough for this to easily outweigh the downside of unpleasantness, and I find it hard to imagine someone who's sensitive enough for this to not be true.

Granted, the context and the effect of the language need to be taken into account. I don't think that using the word stupid is risking causing any real damage to people; I think the main problem is that it leads to defensiveness and death spirals. With a lot of audiences, I wouldn't use the word because I expect that it'd cause a death spiral and prevent people from thinking straight. But I don't anticipate anyone here falling into a death spiral because of it; I anticipate people seeing the word for what it is, and moving on. I'm not too confident in this approach though, so if you disagree with it, please explain your reasoning to me. My biggest worry is that by using a different word, it'd remove valuable/relevant information from the statement. So it seems to me that with an audience who would resist death spirals, the benefit of added information makes it worth using.

Comment author: adamzerner 25 September 2015 04:39:30AM *  4 points [-]

Ultimately, I'm pretty sure I "always thought that way". The following ideas and their implications have always been obvious to me: consequentialism, reductionism, thinking at the margin, trade-offs, cost-benefit analyses, expected value.

But perhaps a) arguing with my parents, b) suffering through school, c) living in a world of irrational people, and d) being bullied influenced me by motivating me to think more deeply about things (often out of frustration and spite; which I'm not proud of, but am saying because it's true).


A: When I was younger, I was a bit mischievous. I would get punished a lot by my parents (a big problem I had was that I didn't know how to lose). When I was punished, I would have to sit in my room with all my toys having been taken away from me. And as a little kid with ADHD, sitting in a room by myself with nothing to do was pretty uncomfortable.

I would say things like "Your statement depends on A, B and C, so let me present my counter arguments, and if I change your mind on A, B or C, you should change your mind on the larger point" (except I didn't have the vocabulary to say this clearly). Sometimes I would present a good case and disprove A & B... but they always refused to change their mind on the larger point. This infuriated me. Usually I wouldn't receive an explanation, but when I did, it'd usually be "I'm the authority" or "that's just the way it is". "Just the way it is" is a huge pet peeve of mind.

So I used to dream of being a lawyer. I fantasized about this magical place called a court room where a judge enforced basic logic and let me make my points without being interrupted.

B: I found school to be incredibly boring. Perhaps this boredom motivated me to use rational thinking as a tool to help me avoid the unpleasantness (similar to Dan Ariely, but obviously to a lesser extent). Although I didn't have the vocabulary, the ideas of consequentialism, terminal vs. instrumental goals, Lost Purposes etc. were obvious to me at a very young age. I'd think:

Why do I need to do well in school? Grades -> college -> job -> money -> happiness. So then, I should only pursue grades and other instrumental goals to the extent that they lead to my terminal goal(s).

The boredom and frustration also motivated me to question the educational system itself. When school would do something that made me unhappy, I'd question, "Does it actually make sense that they're making us do this?". I'd often conclude that the answer is "no", and I'd be motivated to think about it from scratch and figure out a better system. Maybe this deep thinking helped me develop intellectually?

C: More generally, we live in a world where the sanity waterline is pretty low and there's a lot of stupidity around us (ex. refusing to admit that trade-offs exist; refusing to think at the margin). If there wasn't as much stupidity around me, maybe I wouldn't have been as motivated to think deeply about things, and wouldn't have developed as much. But because it's there, I think I just generally was frustrated and wanted to think deeply about topics to prove once and for all that the stupid person I was dealing with was wrong.

What would have happened if I grew up in a world of sane people? Without the extra motivation that frustration and spite provided me with, would I have been happy to sit back and play video games? Maybe. Maybe not. At this point, I'm mature enough to be motivated by things like truth and altruism, but I'm not sure if my middle/high school self would have been.

D: There was a point in middle school where I fought back against a bully and lost every friend I had for doing so. At the time, I was socially conscious enough to be a bit traumatized. But soon afterwards, I started to question things. Why care about social value? Through what mechanism do friends actually bring joy? I think this just further molded me into someone who questions/thinks about everything.

Other: I was raised Jewish. I remember believing in God and the bible stories when I was really young, but at the same time being confused by them. It was weird). I believed that there was some old man in the sky, but it made no sense to me that he didn't have a physical form. How could anything not have a physical form? And how could he be so powerful if he didn't have a physical form? I think I remember deviating a bit in my beliefs because of these questions I had. I think I believed that God was real, but that he had a physical form and wasn't quite what they told me.

In the years before my Bar Mitzvah, I definitely didn't believe in religion anymore. I was annoyed that I had to go to Hebrew School. I was also annoyed that I had to practice for my Bar Mitzvah, but wasn't opposed to having the ceremony to get the presents.

I also remember a specific day in 10th grade World History. We were learning about some African cultures and the Gods they believed in. I remember being taught that they had different Gods to explain different phenomenas. Like a God of rain, God of thunder etc. At that point, it really hit me that when humans don't understand something, they're capable of just inventing an explanation and believing it. "How is there water falling from the sky? It must be The God Of Rain".

What is your rationalist backstory?

7 adamzerner 25 September 2015 01:25AM

I'm reading Dan Ariely's book Predictably Irrational. The story of what got him interested in rationality and human biases goes something like this.

He was the victim of a really bad accident, and had terrible burns covering ~70% of his body. The experience was incredibly painful, and so was the treatment. For treatment, he'd have to bathe in some sort of disinfectant, and then have bandages ripped off his exposed flesh afterwards, which was extremely painful for him.

The nurses believed that ripping it off quickly would produce the least amount of pain for the patient. They thought the short and intense bursts of pain were less (in aggregate) than the less intense but longer periods of pain that a slower removal of the bandages would produce. However, Dan disagreed about what would produce the least amount of pain for patients. He thought that a slower removal would be better. Eventually, he found some scientific research that supported/proved his theory to be correct.

But he was confused. These nurses were smart people and had a ton of experience giving burn victims baths - shouldn't they have figured out by now what approaches best minimize patient pain? He knew their failure wasn't due to a lack of intelligence, and that it wasn't due to a lack of sympathy. He ultimately concluded that the failure was due to inherent human biases. He then became incredibly interested in this and went on to do a bunch of fantastic research in the area.

In my experience, the overwhelming majority of people are uninterested in rationality, and a lot of them are even put off by it. So I'm curious about how members of this incredibly small minority of the population became who they are.

Part of me thinks that extreme outputs are the result of extreme inputs. Like how Dan's extreme passion for his work has (seemingly) originated from his extreme experiences with pain. With this rule-of-thumb in mind, when I see someone who possesses some extreme character trait, I expect there to be some sort of extreme story or experience behind it.

But another part of me thinks that this doesn't really apply to rationality. I don't have much data, but from the limited experience I've had getting to know people in this community, "I've just always thought this way" seems common, and "extreme experiences that motivated rational thinking" seems rare.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing people's "rationalist backstories". Personally, I'm interested in reading really long and detailed backstories, but am also interested in reading "just a few paragraphs". I'm also eager to hear people's thoughts on my "extreme input/output" theory.

Comment author: Ixiel 19 September 2015 11:36:56AM 0 points [-]

So you say altruism is something to "assume that we mostly agree on, and thus not really elaborate" and I know the sentiment is sometimes that it's like jazz and pornography, but fwiw I'd be curious about an elaboration. I don't think that particular prejudice is a big part of rationalist failures, but raising the possibility of it being a part is interesting to me.

Comment author: adamzerner 19 September 2015 02:32:46PM 0 points [-]

I just meant that rationalists overwhelmingly seem to have altruistic goals.

I'm not sure what you meant with "jazz and pornography".

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 16 September 2015 10:46:37PM 2 points [-]

In the absence of any indications whether this included weekends I assumed that it doesn't include weekends. On weekends my producivity is way lower.

Comment author: adamzerner 16 September 2015 11:02:34PM *  1 point [-]

Good point. I intended for it to mean "on days where you intend to put in a full days work". I'm a little crazy so for me that's every day :) But I definitely should have clarified.

Comment author: adamzerner 16 September 2015 02:00:04AM *  6 points [-]

How many hours of legitimate work do you get done per day?

Legitimate = uninterrupted, focused work. Regarding the time you spend working but not fully focused, use your judgement in scaling it. Ie. maybe an hour of semi-productive work = .75 hours of legitimate work.

Edit: work doesn't only include work for your employer/school. It could be self-education, side projects etc. It doesn't include chores or things like casual pleasure reading though. Per day = per day that you intend to put in a full days work.

Submitting...

Comment author: adamzerner 16 September 2015 10:07:55PM *  0 points [-]

This is way lower than I expected. Thoughts?

Comment author: adamzerner 16 September 2015 02:00:04AM *  6 points [-]

How many hours of legitimate work do you get done per day?

Legitimate = uninterrupted, focused work. Regarding the time you spend working but not fully focused, use your judgement in scaling it. Ie. maybe an hour of semi-productive work = .75 hours of legitimate work.

Edit: work doesn't only include work for your employer/school. It could be self-education, side projects etc. It doesn't include chores or things like casual pleasure reading though. Per day = per day that you intend to put in a full days work.

Submitting...

Comment author: ZoltanBerrigomo 11 September 2015 11:59:42PM *  3 points [-]

Side-stepping the issue of whether rationalists actually "win" or "do not win" in the real world, I think a-priori there are some reasons to suspect that people who exhibit a high degree or rationality will not be among the most successful.

For example: people respond positively to confidence. When you make a sales pitch for your company/research project/whatever, people like to see you that you really believe in the idea. Often, you will win brownie points if you believe in whatever you are trying to sell with nearly evangelical fervor.

One might reply: surely a rational person would understand the value of confidence and fake it as necessary? Answer: yes to the former, no to the latter. Confidence is not so easy to fake; people with genuine beliefs either in their own grandeur or in the greatness of their ideas have a much easier time of it.

Robert Kurzbans' book Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind is essentially about this. The book may be thought of as a long-winded answer to the question "Why aren't we all more rational?" Rationality skills seem kinda useful for bands of hunter-gatherers to possess, and yet evolution gave them to us only in part. Kurzban argues, among other things, that those who are able to genuinely believe certain fictions have an easier time persuading others, and therefore are likely to be more successful.

Comment author: adamzerner 12 September 2015 01:37:29AM *  0 points [-]

I agree with your point about the value of appearing confident, and that it's difficult to fake.* I think it's worth bringing up, but I don't think it's a particularly large component of success. Depending on the field, but I still don't think there's really many fields where it's a notably large component of success (maybe sales?).

*I've encountered it. I'm an inexperienced web developer, and people sometimes tell me that I should be more confident. At first this has very slightly hurt me. Almost negligibly slight. Recently, I've been extremely fortunate to get to work with a developer who also reads LW and understands confidence. I actually talked to him about this today, and he mirrored my thoughts that with most people, appearing more confident might benefit me, but that with him it makes sense to be honest about my confident levels (like I have been).

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