Comment author: Nisan 27 August 2010 04:22:25AM 15 points [-]

Any new education method will show increases in student test scores if people believe it results in increases in student test scores, because only interested parents will sign up for that method.

For example, Freakonomics tells the story of high school students in Chicago who participated in a lottery for the chance to switch schools. The students who were reassigned to new schools were more likely to graduate; but the students who applied for the lottery but lost did just as well. The explanation given is that the students (or parents) who care about education will attempt to switch to a better school, but the "better" school won't confer an advantage.

Cullen, Jacob, and Levitt. "The Impact of School Choice on Student Outcomes: An Analysis of the Chicago Public Schools". J. Public Econ. 200?.

Cullen, Jacob, and Levitt. "The Effect of School Choice on Student Outcomes: Evidence from Randomized Lotteries". National Bureau of Economic Research working paper, 2003.

Comment author: adsenanim 29 August 2010 04:23:07AM *  2 points [-]

The following link lends credence to this line of thought:

http://www.management.wharton.upenn.edu/grant/Grant_JAP2008b_TaskSignificance.pdf

A note:

There was a study done regarding the cause and effect of employee relationships and how it affected job performance that gave as a result that employees performed better simply because of the attention given them, rather than the validity of any of the techniques introduced.

If anyone can provide a resource for that study, I'll vote you up because I am having trouble finding it.

If I remember correctly it is used in: O'Hair, Friedrich, Dixon 2008 Strategic Communication: In Business and the Professions, Pearson

Comment author: adsenanim 27 August 2010 05:01:56AM 1 point [-]

http://breadandpuppet.org/

I guess the east-coast version.

Heinlein also had a thing for redheads....

Comment author: adsenanim 27 August 2010 02:37:50AM *  0 points [-]

The idea is this:

Not only that people can learn as much about a game from losing it as they can from winning it, but that they need to loose in order to learn how to win. The flip-flop acts as a helper in the process of trial and error.

The feedback caused by the wiring of two NOR gates of the flip-flop allow this because the switches are controlled by the true and false sets exclusively; one switch is always associated with the true statements and the other with false.

When we start to learn, all possibilities are indeterminate, they can be either true or false; F == A+A+A is just as valid as F != A+H+C.

The flip-flop becomes sort of an ex post facto method of examining the data of the experience depending on win or loss. With a loss there can be mild sorting of possibilities, but the real sorting comes with comparing wins and losses.

Let me know if how I am representing this idea is to brief, it is still in its infancy, and as I have said elsewhere in my posts, I haven’t read everything.

Comment author: adsenanim 27 August 2010 03:40:10AM 0 points [-]
Comment author: PhilGoetz 26 August 2010 10:44:09PM 1 point [-]

I still don't understand what the idea is.

Comment author: adsenanim 27 August 2010 02:37:50AM *  0 points [-]

The idea is this:

Not only that people can learn as much about a game from losing it as they can from winning it, but that they need to loose in order to learn how to win. The flip-flop acts as a helper in the process of trial and error.

The feedback caused by the wiring of two NOR gates of the flip-flop allow this because the switches are controlled by the true and false sets exclusively; one switch is always associated with the true statements and the other with false.

When we start to learn, all possibilities are indeterminate, they can be either true or false; F == A+A+A is just as valid as F != A+H+C.

The flip-flop becomes sort of an ex post facto method of examining the data of the experience depending on win or loss. With a loss there can be mild sorting of possibilities, but the real sorting comes with comparing wins and losses.

Let me know if how I am representing this idea is to brief, it is still in its infancy, and as I have said elsewhere in my posts, I haven’t read everything.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 24 August 2010 02:29:21PM 1 point [-]

The real question is what do we do when a game situation presents us with a flip-flop such as explained in Charles Petzold's book code? (This is a basic computing concept).

I don't understand the question. By flip-flop, do you mean an electronic circuit with 2 stable states? What did you have in mind, in the game world?

Comment author: adsenanim 26 August 2010 08:41:04AM *  0 points [-]

Sorry for the delay.

Let’s start a Fire.

The Fire requires 3 things: Air(A), Heat(H) and a Combustible(C) so that:

F == A+H+C.

We know that there are many true statements about F:

F == H+C+A

F == A+H+C

Etc.

Let’s say that these are also true:

F != A+A+A

F != B+A+A

Etc.

We also, because of trial and error, can enumerate the false statements, starting with:

F != A+H+C.

Etc.

Continuing with:

F == A+A+A

Etc.

Now this is where the flip-flop comes in:

The true and false of the basic circuit have an extraordinary amount of combinations for the purposes of making fire.

I came up with this idea not only because people learn games through both negative and positive reinforcement, but that many times we only have a partial picture of the possible combinations for a win.

This is redoubled when we think of thing in terms of arbitrary meanings such as air, heat and combustible.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 23 August 2010 04:52:45PM 4 points [-]
  • Go and chess provide clear demonstrations of opportunity cost, the first-mover advantage (esp. go), and the importance of not wasting time on trivial moves.

  • Go provides proof of, and some understanding of, the power of human intuition. My dad can make moves that I don't think he knows the reasons for, that turn out to have amazing consequences 10 moves later when I discover eg. that a group of stones of mine is dead because, even though I have more liberties in that group than he has in his attacking group, he can use his liberties while I can't use mine due to side-effects of those moves. But one is not inclined to view this as mystical intuition; it's patterns in the stones that his unconscious learned to recognize without his conscious mind knowing why.

  • Small advantages escalate. In chess, at the start of the game I might focus on trying to force my opponent to take a move back, or to trade a piece I haven't moved for a piece he has moved. Once that's done, I take advantage of my increased deployment to try to make an otherwise-even trade that disrupts his pawn structure. Once that's done, I try to take the isolated pawn. Once I'm a pawn ahead (I know then that I'll probably win) I force trades to make that advantage larger. I don't know if this works in real life.

Comment author: adsenanim 24 August 2010 04:28:12AM *  0 points [-]

This reminds me of the general rules of games...

I was recently playing a game of mastermind with a friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind_(board_game)

Mastermind is considered a “solved" game, much like Tic Tac Toe, or checkers.

This considered, I was given cause for thought that even though it is "solved" it still presents the ideas of "Learned Rules", "Intrinsic Rules" and "Trial and Error".

For learned rules the idea is that the rules are related or taught, how one should act according to circumstance.

Intrinsic rules are those rules that are obviated, that the situation itself causes the desire of a solution.

Trial and error is the process of clarifying the rules, related to Occam's in the idea of using the simplest rules to solve the game.

The real question is what do we do when a game situation presents us with a flip-flop such as explained in Charles Petzold's book code? (This is a basic computing concept).

Are games representative of real life or are they viable only as a thought experiment?

Can games be more complicated than physical reality?

Comment author: Dan_Moore 16 August 2010 04:54:00PM 3 points [-]

In the game described by the OP, Nature must invent a law, which must be expressed in a language. So, in the game, there must be a description language.

As to whether (real life) Nature can be said to have a description language: I assess the validity of this concept in terms of its success or failure in explaining phenomena. I wouldn't be 'pretty sure' of any hypothesis unless it were tested.

Comment author: adsenanim 19 August 2010 06:47:49AM *  0 points [-]

So, in a true language the results of saying something could be equal to actions?

I'm not sure how to phrase this...

I think say and do: Heat + Air + Fuel and I get Fire?

Hmm...

Comment author: sketerpot 13 August 2010 05:51:13AM 1 point [-]

A good resource would be the previous attempts at such a work, Aesop's Fables (Platitudinal), I Ching (Esoteric), and Judeo-Christi-Islamic Texts (Dogmatic). If we are to attempt a similar work for the ideas of reason then what can we learn from them to tell the aspects of how to provide a bible, or even a psalm, of reason?

Do you know that these would be good resources? You haven't established this; it might help if you gave one or two examples of how these works of fiction that you listed could help us out.

"The WIKIRESONIA" :)

You'd need to specifically have brevity and low inferential distance as goals, if you made such a wiki. The LW wiki tends to give a brief description of something and then link to some long posts on the subject; in contrast, Wikipedia tends to have really long articles. Getting all those "many interpretations" you recommend takes quite a bit of space. Check out how long the Wikipedia article on confirmation bias is, and ask yourself if a hypothetical Average Person could take anything useful from skimming it.

Comment author: adsenanim 19 August 2010 05:35:18AM *  0 points [-]

I present them (with my critique) because they represent to me attempts at reason as it was before the definition of reason was widely accepted.

I left out any direct quotes out because I thought it may confuse the topic of conversation and that the five minute rule would be violated if I tried to discuss them.

Aesop's Fables:

http://www.aesopfables.com/aesopsel.html

I Ching:

http://en.calameo.com/read/000039257e56b7faf538d

Judeo-Christi-Islamic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

Maybe not the best resources, but they could be an introduction.

I will add one more, only because I find it fun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramids_(novel)

For some reason the above link does not deliver correctly, but you should be able to follow....

Yes the wiki is a challenge, I was thinking of a new graphical interface...

Comment author: DSimon 18 August 2010 09:18:00PM 3 points [-]

I second the OP's recommendation of Zendo. It could've been named "Induction: The Game", it's a great medium for practicing (and teaching!) some basic science and rationality skills, and it's also a heck of a lot of fun. Plus, you can use the neat little Zendo pyramids (also called Icehouse pieces) for various other games.

Comment author: adsenanim 19 August 2010 02:58:31AM 1 point [-]

I agree,

I'm not sure if I should go with Treehouse or IceTowers...

If I buy IceTowers I could probably play Treehouse, but not the other way round...

:)

Comment author: thomblake 18 August 2010 09:32:36PM 0 points [-]

For that, I think we'd need a stack with a line-termination character. In effect, we'd be removing two characters for one, which I suppose would be an improvement.

Comment author: adsenanim 18 August 2010 10:02:25PM *  0 points [-]

So:

  • The order of operations can be variable dependent on the number

  • The notation method effects pattern

  • The pattern can change if primes are always used

  • Etc.

How many ways can we change the rules? How many rules are there?

It is amazing just how much variation in pattern can be achieved just by changing and/or adding/subtracting rules.

There is the general rule of rules:

The fewer the rules, the less variable the pattern, and the inverse, the more rules the more variable the pattern.

  • Sorry for the late edit, but, I would also add that the fewer the rules the less adaptable as well...

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