Comment author: Fluttershy 10 April 2016 05:05:42AM 3 points [-]

Again, your perception of the instructors' competencies may have been the result of a mismatch between the sort of environment the program was trying to offer and the sort of environment you were hoping for.

This actually sounds about right.

I think that I care more about job-preparedness, potential for impact, and preparing people for being able to earn-to-give or do direct EA work. I think that Robert also cares about those things, which is why I liked his weekly interview sessions, as I mentioned above.

However, I didn't get the sense that Jonah, the instructor for the first cohort, really cared about these things quite as much. Jonah strikes me as an intelligent individual whose heart is in academia, rather than in data science or industry. This was quite problematic, because, among other reasons, it meant that even his explanations of grittier things were too focused on the big picture, and too spare on details for some people to figure out how to actually do the thing at all. It also skewed the distribution of topics taught away from things relevant to industry.

Comment author: andrewjho 10 April 2016 10:10:10PM 2 points [-]

Could you please elaborate with specific examples of times when Jonah's explanations were too abstract and not sufficiently practical?

This will be useful information for us, because we certainly want to identify areas in which our curriculum needs further improvement. My personal recollection of Jonah's lectures is that they involved a lot of example code, visualization, back-and-forth Q&A, and interactive exploration of real datasets in lieu of presenting, say, abstract mathematical proofs.

It also skewed the distribution of topics taught away from things relevant to industry.

Along similar lines, what are some specific topics that you think were neglected in favor of more abstract but less applicable material?

I'm particularly interested in what material you thought was overemphasized in the curriculum--my impression is that all of the topics covered were very fundamental to data science as a whole. While one can express a valid preference for certain fundamental topics over others, I would be hard-pressed to say that any of the topics covered in the Signal curriculum weren't extremely industry-relevant.

Comment author: Vaniver 10 April 2016 12:45:41AM *  4 points [-]

I decided to turn down looking for $100k+ data science jobs in the Bay Area to join Signal as an assistant instructor

I think looking for jobs as a data scientist would be a valuable experience for you, and "I turned down an offer from ____" and "I decided to not look" send very different signals. There's almost a month between now and the start of your next cohort; that should be plenty of time to see how far you'd get through the funnel.

Comment author: andrewjho 10 April 2016 01:04:48AM *  1 point [-]

Thanks a lot for your reply--I really appreciate it. I agree completely that it would be a very valuable experience for me, and I'd like to get experience with interviewing. I was hoping to do it in this one-month interstitial period, but it's been quite busy for me: there's a lot of stuff that has to be done like building the website, recruiting for future cohorts, curriculum design, and so on and so forth. "I didn't look" might be a worse signal than "I turned down an offer from __", but at the moment I don't have much of a choice in which one I get to send.

Well, there is the case of a genetics data-science-ish startup extending me all but a formal offer last summer, and it would be possible for me to get back in touch with them, I suppose, but that was mostly due to the technical strength I demonstrated in an internship and not due to success in the traditional Bay Area tech company interview -> offer pipeline.

Comment author: Fluttershy 09 April 2016 10:33:36AM 8 points [-]

Avoid this program.

Jonah and Robert have good intentions, and I was actually happy with the weekly interview sessions taught by Robert. However, I had a poor experience with this program overall. I'll list some observations from my experience as a member of the first cohort below.

First, this program is effectively self-directed; most of the time, neither the TA nor the instructor were available. When they were, asking them questions was incredibly difficult due to their lack of familiarity with the material they were supposed to be teaching. To be sure, both the instructor and the TA were intelligent people--the problem was just that they knew lots of math, but not very much data science.

Second, there were lots of communication issues between the instructors and the students. I really do not want to give specific examples, since I don't want to say something that would reflect so poorly on the LessWrong community. However, I assure you that this was an incredibly large issue.

Lastly, everything about this program was disorganized. Several of us paid for housing through the program, which ended up not being available as soon as we'd been told that it would be. The furniture in the office space we used was set up by participants because Signal was too disorganized to have it set up before we were supposed to start using it. The fact that only two out of twelve students pair programmed together on an average day was also due to a lack of organization of the part of the instructors.

Jonah and Robert clearly worked very hard to make this program what it was, but attending was still a bad experience for me. If you already have a background in software engineering and want to pay $8,000 to teach yourself data science alongside other students who are doing the same, this program is a good fit for you. Otherwise, consider attending a longer, more established program, like Zipfian Academy that actually uses pair programming and has instructors available to answer questions.

Comment author: andrewjho 10 April 2016 12:10:36AM *  5 points [-]

I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience at the bootcamp. It isn't for everyone, and I don't think I would recommend Signal to people who are looking for what you wanted out of the bootcamp. I wish that it had been otherwise; nevertheless, I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts in such an honest and frank manner.

However, I think it's important to separate out your own experience from the experiences of other students. In many cases, including my own, they were radically different.

I'm not personally comfortable with your comment insofar as it seems to implicitly speak for all the students in the bootcamp. I know that my life improved greatly because I was able to come down here, but if I were a prospective student now, your comment might have dissuaded me from coming. For that reason, I believe it's useful to be more specific in your epistemic claims here--it may very well be true that the program is unsuitable for people in your reference class, but I think it would be bad if that fact ended up discouraging applicants for whom the program would be a great fit.

I'm surprised that you think the instructors don't know very much data science. On top of having a strong command of the underlying mathematics, Jonah and Sam were able to teach me things that aren't explained in textbooks, like the intuitive explanation of why the sum of squared error is minimized in linear regression and the fundamental importance of dimensionality reduction techniques. The numerous discussions I've had with Jonah have shaped my intellectual growth generally and made clear to me many of the more obscure aspects of data science specifically--for instance, I had been reading a couple papers on boosting out of personal interest and offhandedly made a remark to Jonah about something I found fascinating, and he was able to immediately understand and rectify a minor point of confusion I had been having.

Again, your perception of the instructors' competencies may have been the result of a mismatch between the sort of environment the program was trying to offer and the sort of environment you were hoping for. I wish that your experience could have been as positive as mine and hope you're able to find what you're looking for in the future. Based on your feedback, Signal is giving higher priority to giving prospective students a clear sense for the program's environment so that they're are well equipped to make informed decisions.

Comment author: andrewjho 09 April 2016 11:47:17PM *  2 points [-]

I was one of the students in the first cohort of Signal Data Science. I had a very positive experience with the program--so much so that I decided to turn down looking for $100k+ data science jobs in the Bay Area to join Signal as an assistant instructor, because I believe in what Jonah and Robert are doing and want others to have the same extraordinary experience that I did. Now that I'm working for Signal, what I say about the program should be taken with a grain of salt, but I feel that it's important to share my experience.

To put my reflections in context: Coming into this program, I was very disillusioned with structured education, having had extremely negative experiences in university. (I found the coursework overly structured, onerous, and intellectually unstimulating.) However, prior to the beginning of Signal, I had positive opinions of both Jonah and Robert (they were both friends of friends), so I decided that it might be worth giving the program a try. Within the very first week of instruction, I was already amazed by the speed at which I was learning new material, the ease with which I was picking up R, and how effortless and enjoyable the whole experience was--in stark contrast to all of my previous experiences with structured education.

I was very impressed by both the breadth and the depth of the knowledge of the instructor and the TA (Jonah Sinick and Sam Eisenstat). Although I had done multiple research internships in college, all of which contained at least some tangential relation to data science and statistical techniques and three of which were highly quantitative in nature, they were able to offer me new insights even in areas where I had domain-specific knowledge and training (e.g. in the field of cognitive genomics). They were always available to help me when I got stuck and always acted congenially and professionally. Also, they were able to point me in a number of very fruitful directions for projects and further study, which I pursued to great benefit.

I also benefited greatly from the voluntary pair-programming structure of the program. At the beginning, I wasn't confident in my knowledge of R, but I was paired up with someone who had substantial past experience programming in R. In that single day, I learned more R than I did spending hours working through the R labs in Introduction to Statistical Learning. Afterward, I was similarly able to transmit my newfound expertise to other students, and finally, when I got started on my own projects and on days when I preferred to work independently, I was free to work by myself.

Lastly, there were interview and resume prep sessions every weekend with Robert, which helped me immensely. I still recall how, on the very first Saturday, we started out doing nontechnical interview prep: I stammered in my responses to the example questions and gave uncertain, incomplete responses. I was a total mess. And I still recall how, after an entire intense afternoon of practice (both with other students and with instructors), I was able to answer nontechnical interview questions confidently and fluently, as if I had been practicing these replies for years. I was astounded by the progress I had made in just five or six hours--and I can say the same about all of the Saturday interview prep sessions. It's very clear to me that Robert is an expert in interviewing and the complex dynamics of the job search.

As for the logistics of the program, I was generally happy with how Signal handled things. In particular, the bootcamp was willing to find housing to accommodate students, which is a service that no other bootcamp provides for its students--meaning that I didn't have to worry at all about trying to figure out where I would be living in Berkeley even though I was flying in from Seattle. To be sure, there were certain fixed costs that were unavoidable on account of the cohort being the first cohort, ever, of Signal Data Science, e.g. having to put together furniture for the house like beds and tables--but it was pretty clear to me going in that there was going to be stuff like that which just had to be taken care of. On balance, after considering the opportunity cost of finding and managing housing for students as well as the time saved on my own end, I definitely got an amazing deal on the rent. Of course, living in the same house with other motivated and intelligent students came with its own social and intellectual benefits as well. :-)

Overall, I would enthusiastically recommend the program to a friend. In fact, I have already been doing so to many people I know--because I want my friends to have the same amazing time here that I had!