Comment author: hhadzimu 06 June 2009 12:21:18AM 0 points [-]

"Many beliefs about procedure are exactly the opposite-- take believing that truth can be taken from the Bible. That procedure is self-justifying and there is no way to dispute it from within the assumptions of the procedure."

That's my point about rationality - the way I think about it, it would catch its own contradictions. In essence, a rationalist would recognize that rationalists don't "win." So as a result, committing yourself to rationality doesn't actually commit you to an outcome, as perhaps following a scripture would.

The bigger problem, I believe, is that most professed commitment to a procedure is superficial, and that instead most people simply bend the procedure to a preferred outcome. "The Devil may cite scripture for his purpose." The key, of course, is following the procedure accurately, and this is the community that'll keep you in line if you try to bend procedure to your preferred conclusion.

Comment author: antisingularity 06 June 2009 07:12:24PM 2 points [-]

"So as a result, committing yourself to rationality doesn't actually commit you to an outcome, as perhaps following a scripture would."

Doesn't committing yourself to rationality commit you to the outcome that so and so "will be rational"? I'm not saying that this is the same exact thing as what evangelical christians do, where they actually twist the lines to reason to their preferred conclusion. But it's like Jack said, don't dupe yourself into thinking none of the problems with labeling will apply to you. That's where you get into a tricky place, because you are ignoring a piece of information that does not jibe with your preferred view of yourself.

Comment author: byrnema 06 June 2009 01:40:28AM *  0 points [-]

The universe is irrational and we have to live in it. [...] Dealing with all of this, a perfectly rational being would forfeit. There is too much chaos, too much unpredictability.

Interesting. I see this as some kind of anti-thesis to rationality; being in some sense exactly what rationalists deny. Sure, we may believe in chaos and unpredictability, but we still believe that rationality is the best way to deal with it.

While I can sympathize with the view that the universe is sometimes too complex, I do believe that predictable success is possible to some extent (probabilistically, for example), and that being rational is the way to achieve that. If being irrational predictably gives better results in any specific context, then our rational theory needs to be expanded to include that irrational behavior as rational. My strongest belief is that the theory of rationality can always be expanded in a consistent way to include all behavior that yields success. I realize this is a substantial assumption.

I would like to learn more about what sorts of things are nevertheless "beyond" rationality, and whether there are some ways to be more rational about these things, or if it's just separate (so that the label rational/irrational doesn't apply.) For example, I think rationalists generally agree that preferences and values are outside rationality.

In response to comment by byrnema on Dissenting Views
Comment author: antisingularity 06 June 2009 05:49:14PM 1 point [-]

"Interesting. I see this as some kind of anti-thesis to rationality; being in some sense exactly what rationalists deny. Sure, we may believe in chaos and unpredictability, but we still believe that rationality is the best way to deal with it."

Yes, I suppose you could characterize it as an anti-thesis to rationality. Mostly, I think that rationality is an excellent way to deal with many things. But it is not the solution to every single problem (love is probably the best example of this I can give).

As for things beyond rational, well, your second paragraph, you might agree, is beyond rational. It's not irrational, but it's a value judgment about the fact that the theory of rationality can always be expanded. You can't justify it within the theory itself.

So I'm not advocating for irrationality as a better means to rationality, simply that they both exist and both have their uses. To believe that you can and should increase your rationality is both rational and great. But to believe that you will always be able to achieve perfect rationality strikes me as a bit irrational.

Comment author: Jack 06 June 2009 02:33:52AM *  2 points [-]

Do you mean luck as in the fact that random events occur to randomly distributed individuals and so some will have more good things than bad happen to them and others will have more bad things happen to them than good? Or do you mean that people have some ineffable quality which makes either good things or bad things more likely to occur to them? The first seems obviously true, the second strikes me as quite a claim.

btw, you blog is quite good. As someone with somewhat middle of the road views on singularity issues (more generous than you, more skeptical than most people here) your presence here is very welcome. I suggest those passing by check out the rest of the articles. Usually good to read both sides.

In response to comment by Jack on Dissenting Views
Comment author: antisingularity 06 June 2009 05:41:34PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the compliments. I had initially been worried that I might be poorly received around here but people are genuinely encouraging and looking for debate and perspective.

As for luck, I am really referring to your first statement. Random events happening to distributed individuals. It's just a tendency in the universe, I know, that we happen to call luck. But, since we get to decide on what's good and what's bad, its seems to me that sometimes really improbably good things will happen (good luck) and sometimes very improbably bad things will happen (bad luck).

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 05 June 2009 11:22:31PM *  4 points [-]

Emotion is not irrational. Luck can't be irrational, because it doesn't exist. Aspects of human thought, such as imagination, are the bedrock of human rationality.

Comment author: antisingularity 06 June 2009 01:16:00AM 0 points [-]

I agree that emotion is not totally irrational. There are systems to it, most of which we probably don't understand in the slightest.

"Relinquish the emotion which rests upon a mistaken belief, and seek to feel fully that emotion which fits the facts"

And how am I to know which emotion is the one that fits the facts? If I am cheated, should I be sad or angry (or maybe something else)? Give me an objective way to deal with every emotional situation and then we can call it rational.

I still think luck exists and is irrational. And imagination too.

In response to Dissenting Views
Comment author: antisingularity 05 June 2009 11:14:28PM 2 points [-]

I don't know if this actually counts as a dissenting opinion, since there seems to be a conclusion around here that a little irrationality is okay. But I published a post about the virtues of irrationality (modeled after Yukowsky's twelve virtues of rationality), found here:

http://antisingularity.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/twelve-virtues-of-irrationality/

I suppose my attempt is to provide a more rational view by including irrationality but that is merely my opinion. I believe that there are good irrational things in the universe and I think that is a dissenting opinion from the major views expressed here. Please take that how you will.

Comment author: antisingularity 04 June 2009 09:50:56PM 0 points [-]

This is quite an interesting piece advocating that not everything about the Singularity will be wonderful and there might be reason to show some restraint. It is sort of the same way that genetic engineering and cloning holds great promise and great peril, and acceptance by some while rejection by others. I do not really believe that the Singularity will ever occur, but I am glad that there is this kind of discussion within the community.

http://antisingularity.wordpress.com/