Comment author:curious
17 April 2009 04:44:02PM
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27 points
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Until a man sees his own argumentativeness as a distinctively male trait, he'll see >women as abnormally passive (departures from the norm) rather than thinking "I am >a male and therefore argumentative" (in the same way that women now identify >various parts of themselves as feminine).
you allude to the dangers that follow from this; i think one issue with making too much of distinctively gendered traits is that it sets up expectations that can be socially and professionally costly to violate. i'm female. i'm argumentative. i'm competitive. i would not describe myself as nurturing, although i think it's a very admirable quality. but as far as i can tell, i don't embody feminine qualities. if those are something i should take pride in, should their absence be shameful? and of course, the social expectations that accompany the biological state of being female are part of what keep women out of high-paying and high-powered jobs, etc. i think this is why many feminists are so reluctant to accept separate male and female norms. (the problem cuts both ways, of course. i've known a few non-masculine heterosexual men who've endured social problems because they didn't fit the male mold.)
saying it's OK for men and women to see themselves as inherently different on traits other than gross anatomy is a bit easier when you're a man or woman who has the qualities you're "supposed" to have.
Comment author:ayaleaf
11 November 2012 09:17:58PM
4 points
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Similarly, Most of my friends and I tend to have roughly equal sets of male and female characteristics.
The only real difference I see between some of my male friend's argumentativeness and my own passivity is that they have times where they will admit that they are just itching for a fight, whereas I will not argue unless there is an issue, it affects something I care about, and I know how to fix it. Otherwise it's just people shouting at each other, which is rather unproductive and I have better things to do with my time.
you allude to the dangers that follow from this; i think one issue with making too much of distinctively gendered traits is that it sets up expectations that can be socially and professionally costly to violate. i'm female. i'm argumentative. i'm competitive. i would not describe myself as nurturing, although i think it's a very admirable quality. but as far as i can tell, i don't embody feminine qualities. if those are something i should take pride in, should their absence be shameful? and of course, the social expectations that accompany the biological state of being female are part of what keep women out of high-paying and high-powered jobs, etc. i think this is why many feminists are so reluctant to accept separate male and female norms. (the problem cuts both ways, of course. i've known a few non-masculine heterosexual men who've endured social problems because they didn't fit the male mold.)
saying it's OK for men and women to see themselves as inherently different on traits other than gross anatomy is a bit easier when you're a man or woman who has the qualities you're "supposed" to have.
Similarly, Most of my friends and I tend to have roughly equal sets of male and female characteristics.
The only real difference I see between some of my male friend's argumentativeness and my own passivity is that they have times where they will admit that they are just itching for a fight, whereas I will not argue unless there is an issue, it affects something I care about, and I know how to fix it. Otherwise it's just people shouting at each other, which is rather unproductive and I have better things to do with my time.