Comment author: Lumifer 13 June 2016 05:14:10PM 1 point [-]

A basic income would be basic, as in really, really low

That's a pretty major thing that routinely gets only vaguely handwaved at. What does "really, really low" mean, in numbers? "Comfortable living" is a very ill-defined measure and not usually associated with "really low" income, anyway.

Really really low basic income already exists, for example all residents of Alaska get a "dividend" each year which varies somewhere around $1,000-2,000. Presumably, UBI would be greater, but how much greater?

Comment author: bogus 13 June 2016 06:01:50PM *  0 points [-]

residents of Alaska get a "dividend" each year which varies somewhere around $1,000-2,000. Presumably, UBI would be greater, but how much greater?

Well, Alaska is not really a low-cost-of-living place so these folks might have to move, but something not much greater than that could work well. Maybe $8k/yr, if you posit a few hundred dollars per month for shelter (a ballpark approximation to the cost over time of either a shared room or a cheap mobile home), something in the same ballpark for food, and the remainder for keeping an emergency fund, pursuing the occasional amenity and having a reasonable safety factor to fall back on.

David Friedman argues that people could in fact live on what you get for the Alaska dividend (though, again, not in Alaska) and have money left to spare, but it's not clear that his scenario really covers people's 'basic needs' (as defined e.g. by Maslow's value hierarchy) especially in the long term.

Comment author: Lumifer 13 June 2016 03:38:36PM 0 points [-]

The Mincome experiment in Canada is relevant.

Is it? That experiment didn't involve that much money (if I'm reading the Wikipedia table right, between $3,800 and $5,500 annually) and explicitly reduced the payment if you were working -- so it looks more like welfare (granted, of the no-questions-asked kind) and less like UBI to me.

But there is a bigger question: what is a "not a bad outcome"? Obviously, if you pump external money into a community, that community's life will get better. But on the scale of a country, there is (usually) no external money, so you are just redistributing money from some people to some other people. At this point the issue is, basically, economic efficiency. If you give $X to a group of people, what happens to their economic output? If it did not grow by at least $X, well, you can justify this transfer by a variety of moral arguments (justice, fairness, etc.), but there is no economic justification -- the "achieving more that way" part does not work.

Comment author: bogus 13 June 2016 04:47:58PM 0 points [-]

At this point the issue is, basically, economic efficiency. If you give $X to a group of people, what happens to their economic output? If it did not grow by at least $X

That's not how economics works. People differ massively in the value they would put on the marginal dollar that they earn, and this is the main reason why giving some "free" money to low-earners can make economic sense, even if that money is raised via taxes.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 13 June 2016 03:34:09PM 0 points [-]

If there was a basic income, I would not work. And people who know me are extremely unlikely to identify me as someone who "wouldn't be doing much worthwhile at work anyway." So that's surely a false generalization. And since we have no measure of how false it is, there is definitely no proof that the resulting situation would be desirable.

Comment author: bogus 13 June 2016 04:41:00PM *  0 points [-]

If there was a basic income, I would not work.

Are you sure about that? A basic income would be basic, as in really, really low; basically, what suffices to ensure a comfortable living on its own, provided that you live frugally and in a low-cost area of the country - and not much more. I'll believe you if you also tell me that you're currently pursuing 'Early Retirement Extreme' or otherwise optimizing for low consumption and high leisure time - but not otherwise.

Comment author: Lumifer 13 June 2016 03:10:34PM 1 point [-]

This is not a bad outcome in itself ... have a chance of achieving more that way

Would you like to provide some data/arguments in support of this assertion?

one which allows for less government involvement

That really depends on the details of the implementation. You can structure UBI so that it provides either independence from or dependence on the government.

Comment author: bogus 13 June 2016 03:16:25PM *  0 points [-]

Would you like to provide some data/arguments in support of this assertion?

The Mincome experiment in Canada is relevant. It's widely reported that reduction in labor supply was largely explained by teenagers in school and women with pre-school-aged children. Two groups with especially high opportunity-costs of working, and the former with generally low productivity - quite close to what theory predicts.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 11 June 2016 11:36:02AM 1 point [-]

"The output humanity will have anyway will run the world."

In the first place, at least some people would stop working. That would mean that less goods would be produced. That would mean that the price of goods would increase. If it increased too much, then the quantity established as a "basic income" would no longer be enough to support people. Then if you wanted to maintain the system, you would have to increase the amount of the basic income, and a cycle would ensue.

It is not clear where that cycle would end. It is possible it would end with enough people working to support everyone else. It is also possible that it would not, in which case money would become worthless, and each person would either survive on his own work, or die. I do not think it is a good idea to simply assume that the first thing will happen.

I agree with Lumifer that, to a first approximation, no one in America or Europe today dies of starvation because they are lazy. I would be surprised if anyone can find even a single example of this happening. But part of the reason for this is the existence of social incentives that move many lazy people to work anyway. If you take away those incentives, there is no guarantee that lazy people will not actually die.

Comment author: bogus 13 June 2016 02:57:36PM *  0 points [-]

In the first place, at least some people would stop working.

The people who would stop working under a well-designed basic income (i.e. one that's broadly equivalent to a negative income-tax) are largely the least productive - the ones who wouldn't be doing much worthwhile at work anyway, compared to how much they value their time and effort. This is not a bad outcome in itself, since such people would then be free to enter in non-market arrangements (e.g. by volunteering, working independently etc. Not only do such arrangements exist, but they are a natural part of any free society. Market exchange is critically important of course, but it's not the whole picture) and have a chance of achieving more that way.

Basic income is not centrally-planned socialism ("from everyone according to their ability..."); it's best understood as a targeted tweak on the market-based system we already have - and one which allows for less government involvement than the "socialist market economy" found in some Western European countries.

Comment author: bogus 17 May 2016 07:20:17PM *  4 points [-]

Solomonoff induction is uncomputable, thus, as a direct consequence, it cannot be learned. Some approximations to it which are of practical interest: Occam learning and probably approximately correct learning. As a general matter, these questions are addressed by computational learning theory.

Comment author: ChristianKl 16 May 2016 09:25:55PM -1 points [-]

I think you mean ethics and not morals.


There are many ways to persuade people. You can control information flow. You can nudge people and optimize the nudging.

There are physical changes that affect moral behavior. A lot of variables from temperature to diet have effects on moral decision making in certain instances.

You can convince people through arguments.

Comment author: bogus 17 May 2016 04:36:54AM *  0 points [-]

I think you mean ethics and not morals.

Morals is definitely the right word here! The generally-recognized difference between morality and ethics is that the first implies either some kind of inner tendency in individuals (a 'moral core') or an expressly-given 'moral code'. By contrast, ethics refers to the problem of how moralities can play out in practical settings and even interact with each other - ethics does not pit "right versus wrong", but balances "right versus right", as Rushworth Kidder would put it. Although people will also use "ethics", or more properly "normative ethics", as an easy way of referencing values that are so widely shared among human societies that they can be considered near-universal - such as the values of honesty, fairness, good knowledge and a fully thriving life. But this is a derivative meaning and theoretically a less important one. (Anyway, yes, ethical argument is definitely one key way of balancing values, so you're on the right track there.)

Thus, OP's question is itself one of the key problems in ethics; on a larger scale, it also explains the origin of politics itself, as dispute resolution in complex societies becomes reliant on government-like institutions and broadly-acknowledged formal rules of 'fairness'.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 May 2016 10:54:19AM 2 points [-]

Is there a public database for math proofs in a form where they can be read by computers?

Comment author: bogus 13 May 2016 11:21:09AM 4 points [-]
Comment author: woodchopper 02 May 2016 06:16:47PM *  0 points [-]

The "simulation argument" by Bostrom is flawed. It is wrong. I don't understand why a lot of people seem to believe in it. I might do a write up of this if anyone agrees with me, but basically, you cannot reason about without our universe from within our universe. It doesn't make sense to do so. The simulation argument is about using observations from within our own reality to describe something outside our reality. For example, simulations are or will be common in this universe, therefore most agents will be simulated agents, therefore we are simulated agents. However, the observation that most agents will eventually be or already are simulated only applies in this reality/universe. If we are in a simulation, all of our logic will not be universal but instead will be a reaction to the perverted rules set up by the simulation's creators. If we're not in a simulation, we're not in a simulation. Either way, the simulation argument is flawed.

Comment author: bogus 02 May 2016 08:45:33PM *  1 point [-]

you cannot reason about without our universe from within our universe. It doesn't make sense to do so.

Of course you can. Anyone who talks about any sort of 'multiverse' - or even causally disconnected regions of 'our own universe' - is doing precisely this, whether they realize it or not.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 12 April 2016 03:20:02PM -2 points [-]

Rust, a video game, has a veil of ignorance

After you've had a character for a while, gender is imposed randomly and permanently.

Comment author: bogus 27 April 2016 04:36:27PM 0 points [-]

After you've had a character for a while, gender is imposed randomly and permanently.

The "we hate our customers" school of game design :-P

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