Comment author: BigT 03 December 2014 06:22:09AM 1 point [-]

I have some philosophical objections to your approach. I'm not sure it's such a good idea to focus exclusively on research questions that are explicitly aging-related, just because you'll be limiting yourself to a subset of the promising ideas out there. Secondly, you probably shouldn't worry about pursuing a project in which your already-collected data is useless, especially if that data or similar is also available to most other researchers in your field (if not, it would be very useful for you to try to make that data available to others who could do something with it). You're probably more likely to make progress with interesting new data than interesting old data. Also, I'm not sure if this is your intention, but it seems to me that the goal of spending 20 years to slow or prevent aging is a recipe for wasting time. It's such an ambitious goal that so many people are already working on, any one researcher is unlikely to put a measurable dent in it. It's like getting a math phd and saying "Ok, now I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to help solve the Riemann Hypothesis." Esepcially when you're just starting out, you may be better-served working on the most promising projects you can find in your general area of interest, even if their goals are less ambitious.

P.s. Sorry if a lot of what I've said is naive, I've never worked in academia.

Comment author: bokov 03 December 2014 04:08:54PM 0 points [-]

Also, I'm not sure if this is your intention, but it seems to me that the goal of spending 20 years to slow or prevent aging is a recipe for wasting time. It's such an ambitious goal that so many people are already working on, any one researcher is unlikely to put a measurable dent in it.

In the last five years the NIH (National Institutes of Health) has never spent more than 2% of its budget on aging research. To a first approximation, the availability of grant support is proportional to the number of academic researchers, or at least to the amount of academic research effort being put into a problem. This is evidence against aging already getting enough attention. Especially considering that age is a major risk factor for just about every disease. It's as if we tried to treat AIDS by spending 2% on HIV research and 98% on all the hundreds of opportunistic infections that are the proximal causes any individual AIDS patient's death. I would think that curing several hundred proximal problems is more ambitious than trying to understand and intervene in a few underlying causes.

I have no illusions of single-handedly curing aging in the next two decades. I will be as satisfied as any other stiff in the cryofacility if I manage remove one or more major road-blocks to a practical anti-aging intervention or at least a well-defined and valid mechanistic model of aging.

Comment author: BigT 03 December 2014 06:22:09AM 1 point [-]

I have some philosophical objections to your approach. I'm not sure it's such a good idea to focus exclusively on research questions that are explicitly aging-related, just because you'll be limiting yourself to a subset of the promising ideas out there. Secondly, you probably shouldn't worry about pursuing a project in which your already-collected data is useless, especially if that data or similar is also available to most other researchers in your field (if not, it would be very useful for you to try to make that data available to others who could do something with it). You're probably more likely to make progress with interesting new data than interesting old data. Also, I'm not sure if this is your intention, but it seems to me that the goal of spending 20 years to slow or prevent aging is a recipe for wasting time. It's such an ambitious goal that so many people are already working on, any one researcher is unlikely to put a measurable dent in it. It's like getting a math phd and saying "Ok, now I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to help solve the Riemann Hypothesis." Esepcially when you're just starting out, you may be better-served working on the most promising projects you can find in your general area of interest, even if their goals are less ambitious.

P.s. Sorry if a lot of what I've said is naive, I've never worked in academia.

Comment author: bokov 03 December 2014 03:19:44PM 0 points [-]

Secondly, you probably shouldn't worry about pursuing a project in which your already-collected data is useless, especially if that data or similar is also available to most other researchers in your field (if not, it would be very useful for you to try to make that data available to others who could do something with it). You're probably more likely to make progress with interesting new data than interesting old data.

This is 'new' data in the sense that it is only now becoming available for research purposes, and if I have my way, it is going to be in a very flexible and analysis-friendly format. It is the core mission of my team to make the data available to researchers (insofar as permitted by law, patients' right to privacy, and contractual obligations to the owners of the data).

If I ran "academia", tool and method development would take at least as much priority as traditional hypothesis-driven research. I think a major take-home message of LW is that hypotheses are a dime a dozen-- what we need are practical ways to rank them and update their rankings on new data. A good tool that lets you crank through thousands of hypotheses is worth a lot more than any individual hypothesis. I have all kinds of fun ideas for tools.

But for the purposes of this post, I'm assuming that I'm stuck with the academia we have, I have access to a large anonymized clinical dataset, and I want to make the best possible use of it (I'll address your points about aging as a choice of topic in a separate reply).

The academia we're stuck with (at least in the biomedical field) effectively requires faculty to have a research plan describable by "Determine whether FOO is true or false" rather than "Create a FOO that does BAR".

So the nobrainer approach would be for me to take the tool I most want to develop, slap some age-related disease onto it as a motivating use-case, and make that my grant. But, this optimizes for the wrong thing-- I don't want to find excuses for engaging in fascinating intellectual exercises. I want to find the problems with the greatest potential to advance human longevity, and then bring my assets to bear on those problems even if the work turns out to be uglier and more tedious than my ideal informatics project.

The reason I'm asking for the LW community's perspective on what's on the critical path to human longevity is that I spent too much time around excuse-driven^H^H^H hypothesis-driven research to put too much faith in my own intuitions about what problems need to be solved.

Comment author: Fluttershy 25 November 2014 01:19:24AM 1 point [-]

Okay, neat! I have an idea, and it might be kind of farfetched, or not amenable to the types of analyses you are best at doing, but I'll share it anyways. Here goes.

Given that there is a tradeoff between health and reproduction, I wonder if you could increase the expected lifespan of a healthy human male by having him take anti-androgens on a regular basis.

We already know that male eunuchs who are humans live longer than intact male humans. I suspect that most guys wouldn't be willing to become eunuchs even if they valued having a long lifespan very highly, but being able to increase one's expected lifespan by decreasing one's testosterone levels while still remaining intact might be something that a few males would consider, if such a therapy were proven to be effective.

Anyways, after taking 10 minutes to look around on Google Scholar, I wasn't able to find any papers suggesting that taking anti-androgens would be an effective anti-aging measure, so maybe this would be a viable project for someone to work on.

As an aside, I don't know which mechanisms cause castrated men to live longer, but this seems relevant to the question of why/how castrated men live longer.

Comment author: bokov 25 November 2014 01:39:20AM 4 points [-]

Great idea! Here's how I can convert your prospective experiment into retrospective ones:

Comparing hazard functions for individuals with diagnoses of infertility versus individuals who originally enter the clinic record system due to a routine checkup.

Comment author: Fluttershy 25 November 2014 12:49:49AM 16 points [-]

To answer your questions:

  • SENS has a page that might help answer the first question you posed above.
  • You could email Audbrey de Grey and ask for ideas. (The page I have linked above seems to suggest that he is highly open to receiving emails from intelligent people who are interested in doing anti-aging research, so don't let the fact that he's internet-famous prevent you from sending him a note).
  • In response to 2, I would say that it seems like you are already highly skilled, such that you could dive in and tackle any problem(s) you decide to start working on immediately. People gain skills by working on hard problems, so it doesn't seem necessary for you to take additional time to explicitly hone your skill set before starting on any project(s) that you want to work on.
Comment author: bokov 25 November 2014 01:12:17AM 8 points [-]

Thanks for reminding me about SENS and de Grey, I should email him. I should reach out to all the smart people in the research community I know well enough to randomly pester and collect their opinions on this.

Comment author: Fluttershy 25 November 2014 12:49:49AM 16 points [-]

To answer your questions:

  • SENS has a page that might help answer the first question you posed above.
  • You could email Audbrey de Grey and ask for ideas. (The page I have linked above seems to suggest that he is highly open to receiving emails from intelligent people who are interested in doing anti-aging research, so don't let the fact that he's internet-famous prevent you from sending him a note).
  • In response to 2, I would say that it seems like you are already highly skilled, such that you could dive in and tackle any problem(s) you decide to start working on immediately. People gain skills by working on hard problems, so it doesn't seem necessary for you to take additional time to explicitly hone your skill set before starting on any project(s) that you want to work on.
Comment author: bokov 25 November 2014 01:09:41AM 5 points [-]

People gain skills by working on hard problems, so it doesn't seem necessary for you to take additional time to explicitly hone your skill set before starting on any project(s) that you want to work on.

The embarrassing truth is I spent so much time cramming stuff into my brain while trying to survive in academia that until now I haven't really had time to think about the big picture. I just vectored toward what at any given point seemed like the direction that would give me the most options for tackling the aging problem. Now I'm finally as close to an optimal starting point as I can reasonably expect and the time has come to confront the question: "now what"?

Comment author: James_Miller 25 November 2014 12:15:03AM 1 point [-]

Examine people who do intermittent fasting to promote autophagy.

Comment author: bokov 25 November 2014 12:40:59AM 0 points [-]

So, for a retrospective approach with existing data, I could try to find a constellation of proxy variables in the ICD9 V-codes and maybe some lab values suggestive of basically healthy patients who consume a lower-than-typical amount of calories. Not in a very health-conscious part of the country though, so unlikely that a large number of patients would do this on purpose, let alone one specific fasting strategy.

Now, something I could do is team up with a local dietician or endocrinologist and recruit patients to try calorie restriction.

Comment author: bokov 25 November 2014 12:36:03AM 2 points [-]

I should clarify something: the types of problems I can most efficiently tackle are retrospective analysis of already-collected data.

Prospective clinical and animal studies are not out of the question, but given the investment in infrastructure and regulatory compliance they would need, these would have to be collaborations with researchers already pursuing such studies. This is on the table, but does not leverage the clinical data I already have (unless, in the case of clinical researchers, they are already at my institution or an affiliated one).

My idea at the moment is to fit a hidden Markov model and derive a state model for human aging. But this pile of clinical data I have has got to be useful for all kinds of other aging-related questions...

Request for suggestions: ageing and data-mining

14 bokov 24 November 2014 11:38PM

Imagine you had the following at your disposal:

  • A Ph.D. in a biological science, with a fair amount of reading and wet-lab work under your belt on the topic of aging and longevity (but in hindsight, nothing that turned out to leverage any real mechanistic insights into aging).
  • A M.S. in statistics. Sadly, the non-Bayesian kind for the most part, but along the way acquired the meta-skills necessary to read and understand most quantitative papers with life-science applications.
  • Love of programming and data, the ability to learn most new computer languages in a couple of weeks, and at least 8 years spent hacking R code.
  • Research access to large amounts of anonymized patient data.
  • Optimistically, two decades remaining in which to make it all count.

Imagine that your goal were to slow or prevent biological aging...

  1. What would be the specific questions you would try to tackle first?
  2. What additional skills would you add to your toolkit?
  3. How would you allocate your limited time between the research questions in #1 and the acquisition of new skills in #2?

Thanks for your input.


Update

I thank everyone for their input and apologize for how long it has taken me to post an update.

I met with Aubrey de Grey and he recommended using the anonymized patient data to look for novel uses for already-prescribed drugs. He also suggested I do a comparison of existing longitudinal studies (e.g. Framingham) and the equivalent data elements from our data warehouse. I asked him that if he runs into any researchers with promising theories or methods but for a massive human dataset to test them on, to send them my way.

My original question was a bit to broad in retrospect: I should have focused more on how to best leverage the capabilities my project already has in place rather than a more general "what should I do with myself" kind of appeal. On the other hand, at the time I might have been less confident about the project's success than I am now. Though the conversation immediately went off into prospective experiments rather than analyzing existing data, there were some great ideas there that may yet become practical to implement.

At any rate, a lot of this has been overcome by events. In the last six months I realized that before we even get to the bifurcation point between longevity and other research areas, there are a crapload of technical, logistical, and organizational problems to solve. I no longer have any doubt that these real problems are worth solving, my team is well positioned to solve many of them, and the solutions will significantly accelerate research in many areas including longevity. We have institutional support, we have a credible revenue stream, and no shortage of promising directions to pursue. The limiting factor now is people-hours. So, we are recruiting.

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback.

 

In response to comment by Julia_Galef on Tell Culture
Comment author: ChristianKl 19 January 2014 05:56:32PM 7 points [-]

I also find that line a bit strange. In nearly all cases where I would expect that someone says: "I'm beginning to find this conversation aversive, and I'm not sure why" I think I would take it as a topic change to why the conversation might bring up negative emotions in the person.

If we are in an environment of open conversation and I say something that brings up an emotional trauma in another person and that person doesn't have the self-awareness to know why he's feeling unwell, that's not a good time to leave him alone.

In response to comment by ChristianKl on Tell Culture
Comment author: bokov 23 January 2014 03:08:01PM 2 points [-]

If we are in an environment of open conversation and I say something that brings up an emotional trauma in another person and that person doesn't have the self-awareness to know why he's feeling unwell, that's not a good time to leave him alone.

?! Depends. If you don't understand that person intimately or aren't experienced at helping less self-aware (aka neurotypical) people process emotional trauma, it's probably a very good time to leave him alone. Politely.

In response to Polling Thread
Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 22 January 2014 09:16:23PM *  0 points [-]

I got the idea for this from two recent comments: Team Red/Team Blue and my feedback for ialdabaoth) so I will start with a poll for the former:

Submitting...

Comment author: bokov 23 January 2014 02:34:36PM 6 points [-]

I was tempted to vote "makes no sense at all". I did not because I've had far too many experiences where I dismiss a colleague's idea as being the product of muddled thinking only to later realize that a) the idea makes sense, they just didn't know how to express it clearly or b) the idea makes practical sense but my profession chooses to sweep it under the rug because it's too inconvenient. On Stackoverflow and LW I see the same tendency to mistake hard/tedious problems for meaningless problems and "solve" the problem by prematurely claiming to have dissolved the question or substituting in a different question the respondent finds more convenient.

Some questions really are meaningless or misguided. But experience has taught me to usually give questions the benefit of a doubt until I have enough background information to be more sure. So, I played along and gave the technically correct answer of "I'm parts both".

Come to think of it, "Red/Blue makes no sense at all" is not even a valid answer to the question. The question did not ask whether it made sense. Such a meta-question should really be a checkbox orthogonal to the main poll question.

View more: Prev | Next