Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 15 March 2010 03:32:27AM 13 points [-]

It's not a good litmus test until you also point to what you consider the best honest skeptical response - albeit this is often damned hard to do with poor skepticism, cryonics being exhibit A in point.

Comment author: brian_jaress 15 March 2010 09:20:47AM *  11 points [-]

You should offer a reward for the best top-level anti-cryonics post. Something to entice quiet dissenters to stick their necks out.

You can post it together with a pro-cryonics reading list, so people know what they're up against and only post arguments that haven't already been refuted.

EDIT: reworded for clarity, punctuation

Comment author: Morendil 05 March 2010 07:30:31PM 1 point [-]

Thanks, that's a good point. There's some authorial sleight of hand going on with that anecdote: I'm telling it to give the reader the feeling of what it's like to see a smart person fail at something basic because they fail to cross domains, but when writing I couldn't actually come up with a real example that was simple enough to fit in one paragraph.

The kind of real examples I had in mind involve the "tests" that people come up with when trying to diagnose a bug or other kind of breakdown, and they make a basic category mistake like trying to "fix" a keyboard stuck in AZERTY instead of QWERTY by unplugging the keyboard and plugging it back in. (And here again, I'm resorting to a simplified example to get my point across.) They know the hardware/software distinction, but they're failing to apply it to their current situation, and instead falling back on "trying" random things. With some justification, because quite often it's what they see "experts" do...

Comment author: brian_jaress 07 March 2010 07:10:19AM 3 points [-]

I'm telling it to give the reader the feeling of what it's like to see a smart person fail at something basic because they fail to cross domains, but when writing I couldn't actually come up with a real example that was simple enough to fit in one paragraph.

I would suggest the example of someone not getting the evil bit joke.

It's good because it works both ways. You only need common sense to understand it, but lay people can be intimidated by the context into not applying common sense, and you'll sometimes see domain experts try to implement essentially the same thing because they turn off common sense while in their domain.

Comment author: Cyan 22 February 2010 03:26:57AM *  1 point [-]

Thanks for the pointer to the original paper.

I'm not seeing why what you call "the real WTF" is evidence of a problem with frequentist statistics.

Check out the title: abuse of frequentist statistics. Yes, at the end, I argue from a Bayesian perspective, but you don't have to be a Bayesian to see the structural problems with frequentist statistics as currently taught to and practiced by working scientists.

I would hope that any competent statistician, frequentist or not, would be sceptical of a nonparametric comparison of means for samples of size 3!

Me too. But not all papers with shoddy statistics are sent to statisticians for review. Experimental biologists in particular have a reputation for math-phobia. (Does the fact that when I saw the sample size the word "underpowered" instantly jumped into my head count as evidence that I am competent?)

Comment author: brian_jaress 23 February 2010 06:02:49PM 3 points [-]

I think that, in this case, the underlying problem was not caused by the way frequentist statistics are commonly taught and practiced by working scientists:

In the present case, the null hypothesis is that the old method and the new method produce data from the same distribution; the authors would like to see data that do not lead to rejection of the null hypothesis.

I'm no statistician, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to make your favored hypothesis the null hypothesis. That's a pretty simple rule and I think it's drilled into students and enforced in peer review.

I see that as the underlying problem because it reverses the burden of proof. If they had done it the right way around, six data points would have been not enough to support their method instead of being not enough to reject it. Making your favored hypothesis the null hypothesis can allow you, in the extreme, to rely on a single data point.

Comment author: komponisto 21 February 2010 09:13:44AM *  27 points [-]

This is going to sound silly, but...could someone explain frequentist statistics to me?

Here's my current understanding of how it works:

We've got some hypothesis H, whose truth or falsity we'd like to determine. So we go out and gather some evidence E. But now, instead of trying to quantify our degree of belief in H (given E) as a conditional probability estimate using Bayes' Theorem (which would require us to know P(H), P(E|H), and P(E|~H)), what we do is simply calculate P(E|~H) (techniques for doing this being of course the principal concern of statistics texts), and then place H into one of two bins depending on whether P(E|~H) is below some threshold number ("p-value") that somebody decided was "low": if P(E|~H) is below that number, we put H into the "accepted" bin (or, as they say, we reject the null hypothesis ~H); otherwise, we put H into the "not accepted" bin (that is, we fail to reject ~H).

Now, if that is a fair summary, then this big controversy between frequentists and Bayesians must mean that there is a sizable collection of people who think that the above procedure is a better way of obtaining knowledge than performing Bayesian updates. But for the life of me, I can't see how anyone could possibly think that. I mean, not only is the "p-value" threshold arbitrary, not only are we depriving ourselves of valuable information by "accepting" or "not accepting" a hypothesis rather than quantifying our certainty level, but...what about P(E|H)?? (Not to mention P(H).) To me, it seems blatantly obvious that an epistemology (and that's what it is) like the above is a recipe for disaster -- specifically in the form of accumulated errors over time.

I know that statisticians are intelligent people, so this has to be a strawman or something. Or at least, there must be some decent-sounding arguments that I haven't heard -- and surely there are some frequentist contrarians reading this who know what those arguments are. So, in the spirit of Alicorn's "Deontology for Cosequentialists" or ciphergoth's survey of the anti-cryonics position, I'd like to suggest a "Frequentism for Bayesians" post -- or perhaps just a "Frequentism for Dummies", if that's what I'm being here.

Comment author: brian_jaress 21 February 2010 07:01:04PM *  3 points [-]

I too would like to see a good explanation of frequentist techniques, especially one that also explains their relationships (if any) to Bayesian techniques.

Based on the tiny bit I know of both approaches, I think one appealing feature of frequentist techniques (which may or may not make up for their drawbacks) is that your initial assumptions are easier to dislodge the more wrong they are.

It seems to be the other way around with Bayesian techniques because of a stronger built-in assumption that your assumptions are justified. You can immunize yourself against any particular evidence by having a sufficiently wrong prior.

EDIT: Grammar

Comment author: Jack 10 February 2010 09:33:25PM *  0 points [-]

I'd rather give a lot of the money to GiveWell, earmarked for international charities. They can then decide how much would be effective in the hands of Village Reach.

Comment author: brian_jaress 10 February 2010 09:40:04PM *  0 points [-]

I'd rather give a lot money to GiveWell, earmarked for international charities.

OK, let's do that. You win.

We can probably still use "Save babies on Craigslist" or something similar as the slogan if we make some baby-oriented charity the "poster child."

EDIT: spelling

Comment author: Jack 10 February 2010 08:54:39PM 0 points [-]

With what staff? Maybe GiveWell or someone could answer this but right now we have no reason to think they could scale up to a budget 100x what they had last year. We also don't know what level of efficiency they could maintain with the increased size.

Comment author: brian_jaress 10 February 2010 09:17:34PM 0 points [-]

With staff they hire. Certain kinds of problems are both inevitable and fixable once money is in the pipeline.

When you add that much money, you're giving it to the planners, not the plan. If what they're doing doesn't scale to the money they get (though I think it will) they'll do something else. Treat it like one of those business plan contests. Their success so far shows that they know how to do charity work.

It will also get people to join on Facebook, without which there will be no money for anyone.

But I'm not married to that particular charity. I just think that with so much money waiting to be claimed, we're having a little too much fun seeing who can predict the smallest nitty-gritties the farthest away.

Comment author: Jack 10 February 2010 08:20:22PM 1 point [-]

GiveWell says they could absorb $2.5 million over the next year. That means if Kevin's math is right 15% of one month's revenue would top them off.

Comment author: brian_jaress 10 February 2010 08:45:47PM 0 points [-]

They do separate, regional projects, and that number is what they need to carry out the projects they've already committed to.

If they get on Craigslist and start seeing steady money out of it, they can start a bunch of new projects in new areas.

Comment author: MBlume 10 February 2010 07:26:45AM 13 points [-]

I think this is a very strange situation. There's a billion dollar bill in the middle of the road, and it's been there for four years. Yes, we should figure out how we can pick it up, and use it to purchase utilons, but I think as a sub-question, we really really need to figure out why it hasn't been picked up. Because what Kevin is proposing sounds easy. I spend time on Facebook, and I've been invited to, and often joined, a ridiculous number of advocacy groups -- one million strong for Darfur, support breast cancer awareness, etc. I do not understand how a group hasn't already been started to claim this money for some popular cause, and I don't think we're going to be able to claim it ourselves unless we can understand that.

Comment author: brian_jaress 10 February 2010 02:15:34PM *  7 points [-]

Maybe they're not trying very hard.

I'm actually seriously disappointed in how hard we're trying. I saw the discussion start in the comments of the "shut up and divide" thread. I came here expecting people to be all over it like ants on a picnic. Instead, there actually appears to be more thought going into spinning theories about why it would be hard than plans for doing it, and none of it really compares to all the serious thinking about TDT, MWI, or "Free Will."

Of course it's hard. The point is not that it's easy, but that it's relatively easy considering how much money is involved.

Here's my own halfharted stab:

This meme needs

  1. A specific cause that moves people.
  2. A charity that uses money effectively.
  3. A good slogan.

GiveWell shows four charities with its top rating:

  • Village Reach: Vaccines for babies in Africa
  • Stop TB Partnership (Stop TB): tuberculosis treatments
  • Nurse-Family Partnership: Early Childhood Care (USA)
  • Knowledge is Power Program (KIPP): K-12 Education (USA)

Village Reach is the winner, as far as the cause moving people. Saving babies in Africa trumps treating TB worldwide and educating mothers or children in the US. (Nurse-Family Partnership sends nurses to teach mothers how to be mothers.)

For the slogan, how about: "Save babies on Craigslist."

EDIT: links, spelling

Comment author: brian_jaress 07 February 2010 08:07:14AM 6 points [-]

What is it about us, the public, and what is it about conformity itself that causes us all to require it of our neighbors and of our artists and then, with consummate fickleness, to forget those who fall into line and eternally celebrate those who do not?

-- Ben Shahn, "The Shape of Content"

Comment author: [deleted] 02 February 2010 06:19:39AM 2 points [-]

A "friend" of mine was a fan of using this to argue for Christianity. The idea of never changing one's mind doesn't seem very rational.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Rationality Quotes: February 2010
Comment author: brian_jaress 03 February 2010 08:30:25AM 10 points [-]

Your friend must be pretty hungry by now.

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