Comment author: Vaniver 13 July 2014 12:35:25AM 6 points [-]

how do we know if the 60 considered studies were testing the hypothesis that there was a link or the hypothesis that there was not a link?

I think the answer to this is "because they're using NHST." They say "we couldn't detect an effect at the level that random chance would give us 5% of the time, thus we are rather confident there is no effect." But that we don't see our 5% false positives suggests that something about the system is odd.

Comment author: byrnema 13 July 2014 12:58:47AM *  2 points [-]

OK, that sounds straightforward.

How does one know that the 60 studies are these? (rather then the others (e.g., that were designed to show an effect with 95% probability, but failed to do so and thus got a negative result)).

Comment author: byrnema 12 July 2014 11:45:28PM *  1 point [-]

Which 5%?

No, that 5% is the probability of a false positive, [...]

No, "that" 5% is the probability from my cooked-up example, which was the probability of a false-negative.

You're saying (and Phil says also in several places) that in his example the 5% is the probability of a false positive. I don't disagree, a priori, but I would like to know, how do we know this? This is a necessary component of the full argument that seems to be missing so far.

Comment author: byrnema 12 July 2014 11:58:32PM 1 point [-]

Another way of asking my question, perhaps more clearly, is: how do we know if the 60 considered studies were testing the hypothesis that there was a link or the hypothesis that there was not a link?

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 12 July 2014 07:49:24PM 4 points [-]

(A) if the true conclusion is 'positive', any test can yield a negative with 5% probability.

No, that 5% is the probability of false positive, not the probability of false negative. Phil has the number he needs and uses it correctly.

Comment author: byrnema 12 July 2014 11:45:28PM *  1 point [-]

Which 5%?

No, that 5% is the probability of a false positive, [...]

No, "that" 5% is the probability from my cooked-up example, which was the probability of a false-negative.

You're saying (and Phil says also in several places) that in his example the 5% is the probability of a false positive. I don't disagree, a priori, but I would like to know, how do we know this? This is a necessary component of the full argument that seems to be missing so far.

In response to Too good to be true
Comment author: byrnema 12 July 2014 02:44:32AM *  6 points [-]

I don't think that it's necessarily suspicious in that, a priori, I wouldn't have a problem with 60 tests all being negative even though they're all only 95% confident.

The reason being, depending on the nature of the test, the probability of a false negative might indeed be 5% while the probability of a false positive could be tiny. Suppose this is indeed the case and let's consider the two cases that the true answer is either 'positive' or 'negative'.

(A) if the true conclusion is 'positive', any test can yield a negative with 5% probability. (this test will be reported as a negative with 95% confidence, though one would expect most tests to yield the positive conclusion.)

(B) if the true conclusion is 'negative', any test that yields a negative will still be reported with the 95% confidence because of the possibility of case (A). Though if it is case (B), we should not expect any positive conclusion, even over 60 tests, because the false-positive rate is so low.

I have no idea if this lack of symmetry is the case for the set of MMR and autism studies. (It probably isn't -- so I apologize that I am probably accomplishing nothing but making it more difficult to argue what is likely a true intuition.)

But it is easy to think of an example where this asymmetry would apply: consider that you are searching for someone that you know well in a crowd, but you are not sure they are there. Consider a test to be looking for them over a 15 minute period, and you estimate that if they are there, you are likely to find them during that 15 minute period with 95% probability. Suppose they are there but you don't find them in 15 minutes -- that is a false negative with 5% probability. Supopse they are not there and you do not find them -- you again say they are not there with 95% probability. But in this case where they are not there, even if you have 60 people looking for them over 15 minutes, no one will find them because the probability of a false positive is pretty much zero.

(I do see where you addressed false positives versus false negatives in several places, so this explanation was not for you specifically since I know you are familiar with this. But it is not so clear which is which in these studies from the top, and it is fleshing this out that will ultimately make the argument more difficult, but more water-tight.)

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 25 March 2014 06:22:36PM 0 points [-]

How do you decide whether to count down or to count up?

Comment author: byrnema 26 March 2014 08:55:19PM 0 points [-]

I preferred to count down since I would like to keep track of how many comments remain until I've successfully met my commitment. If I had just wanted to accumulate an unspecified number, I would have counted up.

…any particular reason why you asked?

Comment author: moridinamael 18 March 2014 12:53:05AM 2 points [-]

The signature lines you're writing under your posts are confusing and caused me to follow your post history to understand what was going on, arriving here, so that I can now tell you adding a block of extra text to all your posts in an effort to be terse seems like a lost purpose.

Comment author: byrnema 19 March 2014 01:39:16AM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll keep track of my 50 comments more unobtrusively. (Comment #47.)

Comment author: byrnema 18 March 2014 12:12:28AM 1 point [-]

This is one of the strangest posts I have ever read on Less Wrong..


50 comments 50 words or less. #48

Comment author: byrnema 10 March 2014 09:31:21PM 4 points [-]

Depending on opportunities in your field, academia may provide favorable amounts of freedom, job security and impact. However, for the quintessential academic, academia is not a calculated optimization but a personality type:

It’s awesome to be supported while you learn and think, if that’s what you wanted to do anyway.


50 comments 50 words or less. #49

Comment author: byrnema 10 March 2014 09:03:59PM 0 points [-]

I had already noticed I needed to adjust in this direction. I'm going to try being more concise and see how it goes.


Specifically, 50 words or less for 50 comments. (#50)

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 07 March 2014 02:42:49PM *  1 point [-]

I interpreted it as indicating that there are multiple ways of thinking about the problem, some of which produce the right answer and some of which produce the wrong answer. There's an element of chance involved in which one the child happens to employ, and children who are farther along in their development are more likely but not certain to pick the correct one on any single trial.

"Acquiring a concept" is a little ambiguous of an expression - suppose there's some subsystem or module in the child's brain which has learned to apply the right logic and hits upon on the right answer each time, but that subsystem is only activated and applied to the task part of the time, and on other occasions other subsystems are applied instead. Maybe the brain has learned that this system/mode of thought is the right way to think about the issue in some situations, but it hasn't yet reliably learned to distinguish what those situations are.

Not sure how analogous this really is, but I'm reminded of the fact that IBM's Watson used a wide variety of algorithms for scoring possible answer candidates, and then used a metalearning algorithm for figuring out the algorithms whose outputs were the most predictive of the correct answer in different situations (i.e. doing model combination and adjustment). So it, too, had some algorithms which produced the right answer, but it didn't originally know which ones they were and when they should be applied.

That kind of an explanation would still be compatible with a sudden boost in math talent, if things suddenly clicked and the learner came to more reliably apply the correct ways of thinking. But I'm not entirely sure if it's necessarily a developmental thing, as opposed to just being a math-related skill that was acquired by practice. Jonah wrote:

Because there was substantial overlap in the algebraic techniques utilized in the different subjects I was studying, my exposure to them per day was higher, so that when I learned them, they stuck in my long-term memory.

And if there is a specific "recognize the situations that can be thought of in algebraic terms and where algebraic reasoning is appropriate" skill, for example, then simultaneously studying multiple different subjects employing the same algebraic techniques in different contexts sounds just like the kind of thing that would be good practice for it.

Comment author: byrnema 07 March 2014 04:01:33PM *  1 point [-]

I appreciate your responses, thanks. My perspective on understanding a concept was a bit different -- once a concept is owned, I thought, you apply it everywhere and are confused and startled when it doesn't apply. But especially in considering this example I see your point about the difficulty in understanding the concept fully and consistently applying it.

Volume conservation is something we learn through experience that is true -- it's not logically required, and there are probably some interesting materials that violate it at any level of interpretation. But there is an associated abstract concept -- that number of things might be conserved as you move them around -- that we might measure comprehension of.

There are different levels at which this concept can be understood. It can be understood that it works for discrete objects: this number of things staying the same always works for things like blocks, but not for fluids, which flow together, so the child might initially carve reality in this way. Eventually volume conservation can be applied to something abstract like unit squares of volume, which liquids do satisfy.

Now that I see that the concept isn't logically required (it's a fact about everyday reality we learn through experience) and that there are a couple stages, I'm really skeptical that there is a physical module dedicated to this concept.

So I've updated. I don't believe there are physical/neurological developments associated with particular concepts. (Abstract reasoning ability may increase over time, and may require particular neurological advancements, but these developments would not be tied with understanding particular concepts.)

Seems kind of silly now. Though there was some precedent with some motor development concepts (e.g., movements while learning to walk) being neurologically pre-programmed.

This seems an appropriate place to observe that while watching my children develop from very immature neurological systems (little voluntary control, jerky, spasmodic movements that are cute but characteristic of very young babies) to older babies that could look around and start learning to move themselves, I was amazed by how much didn't seem to be pre-programmed and I wondered how well babies could adapt to different realities (e.g., weightlessness or different physics in simulated realities). Our plasticity in that regard, if my impression is correct, seems amazing. Evolution had no reason to select for that. Unless it is also associated with later plasticity for learning new motor skills, and new mental concepts.

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