Comment author: itaibn0 06 March 2014 11:41:32PM 1 point [-]

It's interesting that you found Piaget's "formal operational stage" so applicable. I remember when I learned about it (also in a psychology course at around the same age) I found the claim that people only develop abstract thought at the age of 12 completely ridiculous. This is probably related to how my own development was very anomalous.

Comment author: byrnema 07 March 2014 02:20:44AM 2 points [-]

Were you precocious?

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 06 March 2014 10:32:12PM 4 points [-]

I think the real nail in the coffin would be if a young child does not understand a particular concept (say, volume conservation) and it is found that you can teach them this concept before they are supposed to be developmentally ready.

The article doesn't discuss conservation of volume in detail, but it talks about an experiment that's said to be "conceptually similar". And while it's hard to say from the quote, it seems to imply that when children are given feedback on the similar problem, their performance improves (I've bolded that part):

The child is shown two rows of objects, say, pennies. Each row has the same number of pennies and they are aligned, one for one. The child will agree that the rows are the same. Then the experimenter changes one row by pushing the pennies farther apart. Now, the experimenter asks, which row has more? (Pennies might also be added to or subtracted from a line.) Younger children will say that the longer line has more pennies.

When Piaget (1952) developed this task he argued that children go through three stages on their way to successfully solving this problem. Initially they cannot process both the length of the rows and the density of coins in the rows, so they focus on just one of these, usually saying that the longer row has more. The next stage is brief, and is characterized by variable performance: children sometimes use row length and sometimes row density to make their judgment, sometimes they use both but cannot say why they did so, and sometimes they simply say that they are unsure. In the third stage, children have grasped the relevant concepts and consistently perform correctly.

Robert Siegler (1995) showed that children’s performance on this task doesn’t develop that way. Ninety-seven 4- to 6-year-olds who initially could not solve the problem were studied, with each child performing variants of the problem a total of 96 times over eight sessions. After each problem, children were asked to explain why they gave the answer they did, so there was ample opportunity to examine the consistency of the children’s performance and their reasoning. The experimenter found a good deal of inconsistency. Children used a variety of explanations— sophisticated and naïve—throughout, even though they became more accurate with experience (the experimenter provided accuracy feedback, which is a big help to learning). It was not the case that once the child “got it” he consistently used the correct strategy. If the child gave a good explanation for a problem, there was only a 43 percent chance of his advancing the same explanation when later confronted with the identical problem.

Comment author: byrnema 07 March 2014 02:16:44AM *  0 points [-]

I agree that while not exactly 'volume conservation', this addresses the exact same skill.

If the child gave a good explanation for a problem, there was only a 43 percent chance of his advancing the same explanation when later confronted with the identical problem.

Would you interpret this as meaning the children had not acquired the concept, after all? It seems that if the child actually truly understands the concept that moving things around doesn't change their number, then they wouldn't be inconsistent. (Or is the study demonstrating what I found unintuitive, that children can grasp and then forget a concept?)

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 06 March 2014 04:49:15PM *  4 points [-]

Criticism of Piaget's theory

What is “developmentally appropriate practice”? For many teachers, I think the definition is that school activities should be matched to children’s abilities—they should be neither too difficult nor too easy, given the child’s current state of development. The idea is that children’s thinking goes through stages, and each stage is characterized by a particular way of understanding the world. So if teachers know and understand that sequence, they can plan their lessons in accordance with how their students think.

In this column I will argue that this notion of developmentally appropriate practice is not a good guide for instruction. In order for it to be applicable in the classroom, two assumptions would have to be true. One is that a child’s cognitive development occurs in discrete stages; that is, children’s thinking is relatively stable, but then undergoes a seismic shift, whereupon it stabilizes again until the next large-scale change. The second assumption that would have to be true is that the effects of the child’s current state of cognitive development are pervasive—that is, that the develop mental state affects all tasks consistently.

Data from the last 20 years show that neither assumption is true. Development looks more continuous than stage-like, and the way children perform cognitive tasks is quite variable. A child will not only perform different tasks in different ways, he may do the same task in two different ways on successive days! [...]

The problem is not simply that Piaget didn’t get it quite right. The problem is that cognitive development does not seem amenable to a simple descriptive set of principles that teachers can use to guide their instruction. Far from proceeding in discrete stages with pervasive effects, cognitive development appears to be quite variable—depending on the child, the task, even the day (since children may solve a problem correctly one day and incorrectly the next). [...]

These experiments tell us that there is not a rapid shift whereby children acquire the ability to understand that other people have their own perspectives on the world. The age at which children show comprehension of this concept depends on the details of what they are asked to understand and how they are asked to show that they understand it. This pattern of task dependence holds for other hallmarks of Piagetian stages as well. The implication is that stages, if they exist, are not pervasive (i.e., they do not broadly affect children’s cognition). The particulars of the task matter. [...]

Until about 40 years ago, most thought of children’s minds as a set of machinery. As children developed, parts of the machine changed, or parts were discarded and replaced by new parts. The machinery didn’t work well during these transitions, but the changes happened quickly. Today, researchers more often think that there are several sets of machinery. Children have multiple cognitive processes and modes of thought that coexist, and any one might be recruited to solve a problem. Those sets of cognitive machinery undergo change as children develop, but in addition, the probability of using one set of machinery or the other also changes as children develop.

This conclusion doesn’t mean that there is no consistency across children in their thought, or in the way that it changes with development. But the consistency is only really evident at a broader scale of measurement. A geographic metaphor is helpful in understanding this distinction (Siegler, DeLoache, and Eisenberg 2003). If one begins a trip in Virginia and drives west, there are very real differences in terrain that can be usefully described. The East Coast is wet, green, and moderately hilly. The Midwest is less wet and flatter. The mountain states are mountainous and green, and the West is mostly flat and desert-like. There is no abrupt transition from one region to another and the characterization is only a rough one—if I tell you that I’m on the East Coast and you say, “Oh, it must be green, wet, and hilly where you are,” you may well be wrong. But the rough characterization is not meaningless. Similarly, all children take the same developmental “trip.” They may travel at different paces and take different paths. But at a broad level of description, there is similarity in the trip that each takes.

Obviously, the description of multiple sets of cognitive machinery rather than a single set complicates the job of the developmental psychologist who seeks to describe how children’s minds work and how they change as children grow. Worse, it negates the possibility that teachers can use developmental psychology in the way we first envisioned. There is a developmental sequence (if not stages) from birth through adolescence, but pinpointing where a particular child is in that sequence and tuning your instruction to that child’s cognitive capabilities is not realistic.

Comment author: byrnema 06 March 2014 09:32:35PM *  1 point [-]

What I summarize from the above is that educators have decided that Piaget's theory is not helpful for deciding 'developmentally appropriate practice'. Perhaps because the transitions from one stage to another are fuzzy and overlapping, or because students of a particular age group are not necessarily in step. Furthermore, understanding of a concept is 'multi-dimensional' and there are many ways to approach it, and many ways for a child to think about it, rather than a unique pathway, so that a student might seem more or less advanced depending on how you ask the question.

I think the real nail in the coffin would be if a young child does not understand a particular concept (say, volume conservation) and it is found that you can teach them this concept before they are supposed to be developmentally ready. This because I think the crux of Piaget's theory is that certain concepts are physically possible only after a corresponding physical development?

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 06 March 2014 10:06:22AM 1 point [-]

Piagets formal operational stage overly simplifies things. It doesn't go the same way for all people. The basic capability for formal operations sets in much earlier. But using it or recognizing the applicability of specific instances is something else. Some people never get algebra, but that doesn't mean they can't do formal operations. I think what is missing is the intuition behind the formal operations. Just doing the formal operations without intuitively understanding why kills motivation. That is the reason DragonBox works so well. You need to train both. I once draw an ascii art about this: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FuzzyAndSymbolicLearning

Comment author: byrnema 06 March 2014 03:39:37PM *  0 points [-]

The basic capability for formal operations sets in much earlier.

I think it depends. The wikipedia page says that the onset is between 11 and 20 years or so.

My aptitude in mathematics was a bit above average when I was 11 years old. Maybe I had already met the criterion for the formal operation stage, despite not doing well in math the first couple years of high school. But something significant happened when I was 17, and it seemed to be a qualitative change in the way I understood mathematics. I also seemed to be developed the ability to excel in Algebra (with motivated effort) later than my peers. Perhaps it wasn't a specific stage identified by Piaget, but it felt physical/neurological.

I do think Piaget is considered outdated. He might have gotten some of the details wrong or its not the whole story. (For example, I'm skeptical that babies ever lack object permanence.) Nevertheless, Piaget is likely correct that certain concepts develop in stages that are timed with physical development.

Comment author: byrnema 06 March 2014 12:26:24AM *  5 points [-]

Maybe.

When something very similar happened to me (failing Algebra in 9th grade, aptitude suddenly surfacing in 11th), I also thought motivation was really important, but I also noticed my brain working differently. Algebra went from being semi-confused symbol manipulation to understanding what a variable was actually about.

In a simultaneous psychology course, I learned about Piaget's "formal operational stage" and that's what I attributed it to. I think it happens when you're 17 or 18. (Consider/compare with also this data point). So I agreed, it felt like it was a physical difference in development. What do you think of this as an explanatory hypothesis? (Any way to tell them apart?)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 27 February 2014 05:49:33AM -1 points [-]

Can you think of an example (a fictional one might be easiest) where a deception (or even any conflict) was actually about someone overestimating someone's intelligence?

Well, there are entire tropes about this.

Comment author: byrnema 27 February 2014 06:06:01AM *  1 point [-]

I though the cartoon was a good example. The tiger convinced the boy that he was smarter than he actually was, with smooth talking.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 27 February 2014 04:56:35AM -1 points [-]

I'm not familiar with any charlatans or scammers being successful by pretending to be smarter than they were. People pretending to be smarter than they are, are usually pretty transparent.

They are if you're smarter then they really are.

I suspect this is just availability bias, though, do you have any examples in mind?

Well, there's Yvain's tale of how he was almost convinced by Velikovsky's pseudohistory.

Comment author: byrnema 27 February 2014 05:25:29AM *  0 points [-]

It seems you are using 'seeming smart' as interchangeable with 'convincing' or 'persuasive'?

However, these are quite independent. Someone can easily convince me of something, without my thinking they are more intelligent than I am, and without convincing me that they are more intelligent than they are.

Consider a 'smooth talker'. I think people generally recognize that these smooth-talkers are more likable and persuasive on any topic, but there is no necessary correlation with having a higher IQ. In fiction, there are extreme examples like Forest Gump (low IQ, very smooth) and innumerable moderate examples like Peter Venkman in Ghostbusters. Whereas intelligent characters are often portrayed, though not always, as not very persuasive.

...Smooth-talkers and scammers will often break-down defenses by signaling equal intelligence when they actually have higher intelligence.

In the example you gave, how do we know Velikovsky wasn't very intelligent? (We do know he had the ability to write very well, to make a false history seem true.) My question isn't that he is or wasn't intelligent, but whether his deception of Yvain was due to Yvain over-estimating his intelligence.

..Can you think of an example (a fictional one might be easiest) where a deception (or even any conflict) was actually about someone overestimating someone's intelligence?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 26 February 2014 10:42:12AM 3 points [-]

Smartness is impossible to fake

The right jargon, and sounding like you know stuff (otherwise called being assertive), goes a long way.

Comment author: byrnema 27 February 2014 04:11:40AM *  0 points [-]

Fluidly using the right jargon, and signaling that you 'know stuff' without sounding like you're trying hard too show that you know stuff, requires a fair amount of intelligence. (Incidentally, an inability to maintain a natural flow of conversation when someone knows a lot of stuff is one way highly intelligent people reveal that their social acuity is not that high. Their IQ may be extremely high, but a five minute interview can often easily identify these things.)

A certain degree of being articulate and appropriately assertive can be trained – I think I see this happen in the military. However, I don't think it's a fake signal, I think this training really results in greater general intelligence, or greater ability to succeed in any case.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 27 February 2014 01:40:01AM 2 points [-]

I often categorize people as 10-points-smarter-than-me, 20-points-smarter-than-me, etc, just naturally as I go about my day, and I'm (currently) fairly confident of my evaluations.

So you don't have any independent way to verify your evaluations. Let's apply the outside view here: Would you trust the assessment of someone of average or below average intelligence about the relative intelligence of people smarter than him. Note that there exist entire cottage industries of quacks, charlatans, and scammers based on convincing people that someone is smarter than they really are.

Comment author: byrnema 27 February 2014 03:46:05AM *  0 points [-]

The outside view is very good to apply, especially in this case where there hasn't been much independent validation and lots of opportunity for confirmation bias. However, I would and do generally trust the assessment someone else makes about the intelligence of someone else. (With the exception of any assessments based on politics or tribe affiliation.) I guess I agree with the OP that intelligence is fairly straightforward to estimate with secondary signals.

I'm not familiar with any charlatans or scammers being successful by pretending to be smarter than they were. People pretending to be smarter than they are, are usually pretty transparent. I suspect this is just availability bias, though, do you have any examples in mind?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 26 February 2014 03:28:56AM 4 points [-]

It seems to me that you can find out a lot about people's intelligence by talking with them a little

This only works with people less intelligent than yourself. Someone with intelligence comparable to yours who's good at smooth talking can easily convince you that he's much smarter than you.

Comment author: byrnema 26 February 2014 10:52:12PM *  0 points [-]

I find that I don't agree with this comment, though perhaps if I thought about it more I would..

I often categorize people as 10-points-smarter-than-me, 20-points-smarter-than-me, etc, just naturally as I go about my day, and I'm (currently) fairly confident of my evaluations.

Sometimes I can get a pretty good estimate by speaking with someone for 5 minutes -- but I'm aware this is heavily weighted towards verbal acuity, which is just one dimension. A high verbal acuity for me is a marker of high IQ, though average verbal acuity is not strong evidence either way. (I also understand someone can have very high verbal skills while missing some others, so there is an upper bound to what I can predict.) I'm recently studying signs of high social acuity, and I think I'm getting more perceptive at noticing and distinguishing levels that are one or two levels above mine.

Someone that is relatively deficient in one of these parameters can recognize higher levels by evaluating in hind-site how effective and original a particular solution, choice of words or behavior was. It's much easier to judge a behavior than come up with the best behavior yourself. For example, during a meeting I'll realize that someone is manipulating me or others very well. It's much easier to recognize that manipulation that to recreate it. Though it does take some compensatory experience -- since recognizing these manipulations can be as subtle as realizing that a awkward situation has been avoided or people feel better about something that you would have predicted, and determining the intention of the manipulation, and whether it was deliberate or accidental, makes the computation more noisy.

The main way that I judge an IQ higher than mine is if they are faster or more clear on something I've already thought about (this translates to slight increases in IQ) or can succeed at things that I cannot do well or cannot do at all (this is where someone would be at least a level ahead). For example, I'm fairly good at solving problems, and working within a given frame, but I am not very good at choosing problems, because I'm not very strong in selecting frames -- this is a higher order cognitive skill I cannot do well, and no amount of time will increase my success very much. Thus I seek out mentors that are "10 or 20 points above me" to help me with that bit... I consider myself to be 'borrowing' their IQ points for a very short amount of time, so that I can then go and work on a problem within the way they've chosen to frame it. (Again, while I'm not as good at picking a frame, I feel like I am competent at evaluating whether my problem can be well solved within one.)

What I find curious is how people successfully model people of higher IQ in fiction. For example, the doctor in House seems very witty. Is he modeled by someone at least that witty? Likewise with Sherlock Holmes. I realize that the scenarios are contrived, so that the intelligence is mostly illusory, but how intelligent must one be to write a story that convinces someone, say, more intelligent than themselves watching a film that the film is about someone vastly more intelligent than them?

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